nah he has only carried this team for 4 years with stellar big game performances...
and was sporting .960 save% and 1.75 GA for his first 6-7 game while facing 35 plus shot s a game...so tired of he is good but not elite BS...

even if i grant your assessment...HE AINT THE PROBLEM....and neither is his contract...
- bogiedoc

He carried the team? When?

2012-13 he was solid but c'mon that team was so deep and incredible in all areas, probably would have won the Cup even if we still had Niemi that year.

2013-14 he was outplayed by Quick as we lost the WCF

2014-15 was an elite all around team. Top 4D was unfathomably good, as were the forwards. And just like in 2013 we won the Cup because of all around greatness, not because Crawford carried us.

2015-16 he was outplayed by Elliot as we were bounced in the first round

2016-17 he finished 21st in GA and 13th in SV%.....hardly "elite"

I don't care what his numbers say early this season, he's not elite, never has been.

A lot of really good reaction on here. JJ great write up as always!

Honestly, watching this LV team, they look a lot like the Panthers that this same head coach took to the playoffs. They play 200 feet, they play hard and they have a desperation to their game. The Hawks of 10-15 would have stood pat and beat them in a close game. This team is simply not deep and/or bringing any sort of consistent compete level. Debrincat belongs no where near the point on the PP!

Richard Panik, WTF? He had to be hungover until the last shift of the third period. Toews, has no juice. I'm not going to render him useless or say that his 10.5 cap hit is an accurate depiction of what he gives us, but he is a guy with alot of serious miles on him. Remember, Sid while concussed, had almost a year and a half off. Johnny has played deep run after deep run and produced in those runs. His price tag wont change, but getting rid of him gives you a larger hole then you have on your entire roster right now. #1 Centers do not grow on trees.

Saad looked lost last night. Or was drinking from the same bottle as Panik.

The defense.....FART NOISE! They need a #3 Dman. Murphy is not it. The system may be to fast for him honestly. I look at the roster right now and see a lot of holes. How do you fill at this point without creating another hole?



Crow cant make 30 saves a night.
- nickmo2699

They’re both trying to figure out where their captain is. He seems to be MIA.

anybody notice Seabs team leading 11/1 giveaway ratio to takeaways?

Also Crawford isn't elite.

Crawford is good, sometimes great. He definitely isn't "elite"

Kane is our only elite player

So yeah, we went from having 5-6 elite players during our 3 Cup years to having ONE. 4.5 mil in cap space can't do anything to save us. Nothing can.

All we can do is A. make major changes and B. wait for time to pass(and i mean years, not months) until the cycle is reset and we're ready to start from scratch with a new group of young, talented prospects.
- SimpleJack

That's why I said blow it up to stock up on some lottery picks and higher draft picks.

anybody notice Seabs team leading 11/1 giveaway ratio to takeaways?
- camfor

Yes, he has 0 takeaways until recently. He is close to his pace from the last couple seasons.

2015-16 89 giveaways - 19 takeaways
2016-17 88 giveaways - 24 takeaways.

The Hawks in general have struggled in that regard in the last couple seasons and too many are at their own blueline with the other team coming back at them on the attack.

Also Crawford isn't elite.

Crawford is good, sometimes great. He definitely isn't "elite"

Kane is our only elite player

So yeah, we went from having 5-6 elite players during our 3 Cup years to having ONE. 4.5 mil in cap space can't do anything to save us. Nothing can.

All we can do is A. make major changes and B. wait for time to pass(and i mean years, not months) until the cycle is reset and we're ready to start from scratch with a new group of young, talented prospects.
- SimpleJack

Problem could be that the Hawks remain just good enough to never get the top picks.

He carried the team? When?

2012-13 he was solid but c'mon that team was so deep and incredible in all areas, probably would have won the Cup even if we still had Niemi that year.

2013-14 he was outplayed by Quick as we lost the WCF

2014-15 was an elite all around team. Top 4D was unfathomably good, as were the forwards. And just like in 2013 we won the Cup because of all around greatness, not because Crawford carried us.

2015-16 he was outplayed by Elliot as we were bounced in the first round

2016-17 he finished 21st in GA and 13th in SV%.....hardly "elite"

I don't care what his numbers say early this season, he's not elite, never has been.
- SimpleJack

Why don't you share with everyone your list of "elite" goaltenders and we will see how Mr. Crawford stacks up. You're going to find yourself with your foot in your mouth. Crawford stacks up against any other goalie in this league throughout his career

Look at the state of the league last year about 10 games in. Preds were nearly last in the NHL. The Ducks were middling and struggling out of the gate. Montreal was winning like crazy. Pittsburgh near the top of the league in giving up shots. The Bruins were 6% on the PP and the Hawks were 58.3% on the PK.

The Preds kicked out butts and went to the final. Ducks won their division and went to the Conference final. Montreal lost in the first round. Pittsburgh won the cup. Bruins made the playoffs and finished 7th on the PP. Chicago won the west in the regular season.

It is too early to draw too many conclusions. The Hawks have had an up and down start and it shouldn't be surprising.

1) They played a number of good teams to start the year.
2) They have a lot of new faces.
3) They have guys in new roles.
4) They have some new coaches and systems.

There is plenty of hockey to play and you have to wait and see what happens. The Hawks (like many teams) have often been streaky. At some point you just have to watch it play out.

Problem could be that the Hawks remain just good enough to never get the top picks.
- RaleighHawk

This possibility has me worried as well.

He carried the team? When?

2012-13 he was solid but c'mon that team was so deep and incredible in all areas, probably would have won the Cup even if we still had Niemi that year.

2013-14 he was outplayed by Quick as we lost the WCF

2014-15 was an elite all around team. Top 4D was unfathomably good, as were the forwards. And just like in 2013 we won the Cup because of all around greatness, not because Crawford carried us.

2015-16 he was outplayed by Elliot as we were bounced in the first round

2016-17 he finished 21st in GA and 13th in SV%.....hardly "elite"

I don't care what his numbers say early this season, he's not elite, never has been.
- SimpleJack

C'mon Jack, that's hardly accurate. Give it some context. Sorry but there's no way Niemi or another stiff wins it for them in 2013. He was great when it mattered and outplayed the much better goalie Tukka "Erin Moran" Rask.

In 2014 the only reason they were in the WCF was cause of Crawford. There were easily 4 total goalie wins if not more the two prior series vs MN and STL.

In 2015 after the hiccup vs NSH he was rock solid the rest of the way.

Why don't you share with everyone your list of "elite" goaltenders and we will see how Mr. Crawford stacks up. You're going to find yourself with your foot in your mouth. Crawford stacks up against any other goalie in this league throughout his career
- Hawks_49

Elite IMO are Quick/Price/Bobrovsky

Holtby and Rinne are close behind, and you can argue that Crawford could potentially be in this group as well(the 2nd tier), though many outside this fan base would disagree...

Gibson and Vasilevsky are rising up there, Murray is as well despite his tough start to this year. Lundqvist seems to be falling fast....

In all honesty i don't think there's any TRULY great goaltenders right now, Quick is starting to play at that level again if he stays healthy. Bobrovsky and Holtby show flashes and have put up some very impressive numbers. We'll see. Crawford....had he not been in the right place at the right time on those 2 incredibly deep Cup champion rosters in 2013 and 2015(just like Niemi lucked into being on that 2010 team) wouldn't even be in this conversation at all. That's my harsh opinion on Crawford.

If AA is tradable and not injured, why not call up Columbus? Torts said he was the best player he ever coached. I don't know which of their players can be had in a trade for AA, but this is where I would look first.

For all the talk about players being untradable due to contracts, consider that the Leafs were able to unload Phaneuf without having to retain any of his salary.

C'mon Jack, that's hardly accurate. Give it some context. Sorry but there's no way Niemi or another stiff wins it for them in 2013. He was great when it mattered and outplayed the
- HawkintheDmuch better goalie Tukka "Erin Moran" Rask.

In 2014 the only reason they were in the WCF was cause of Crawford. There were easily 4 total goalie wins if not more the two prior series vs MN and STL.

In 2015 after the hiccup vs NSH he was rock solid the rest of the way.

He's definitely had his moments, he's definitely single handedly won us some playoff games. He's a very good goalie...

But you can't sit there and tell me that the 2013 Chicago Blackhawks weren't hands down the best team in the league that year, eye test, stat test(advanced or basic), the best Dcore, and arguably the best 4 line forward rotation come playoff time. Again...did Crawford have his moments, sure. But when there's a great team everyone has their moments, and all phases of our team clicked on several clutch occasions during that Cup run and specifically the SCF.

“Just as Gustav Forsling starts to show a little consistency, Jan Rutta turns back into a pumpkin.”

Don’t quite get the Rutta turning into a pumpkin comment. Playing better than I expected.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inu1wVf4jzs

Once upon a time, Toews had snipes and was a force down low, around the net and for tipping. He even has a couple of dangles in there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWAQdakLiAE
Now, a lot of "tap it in the empty net" and a lot less pretty deflections

Elite IMO are Quick/Price/Bobrovsky

Holtby and Rinne are close behind, and you can argue that Crawford could potentially be in this group as well(the 2nd tier), though many outside this fan base would disagree...

Gibson and Vasilevsky are rising up there, Murray is as well despite his tough start to this year. Lundqvist seems to be falling fast....

In all honesty i don't think there's any TRULY great goaltenders right now, Quick is starting to play at that level again if he stays healthy. Bobrovsky and Holtby show flashes and have put up some very impressive numbers. We'll see. Crawford....had he not been in the right place at the right time on those 2 incredibly deep Cup champion rosters in 2013 and 2015(just like Niemi lucked into being on that 2010 team) wouldn't even be in this conversation at all. That's my harsh opinion on Crawford.
- SimpleJack

I'm sorry but if you include Quick on an elite goaltenders list and don't include Crawford it's pretty clear that you have a bias.

.916 2.26 Quick
.918 2.37 Rinne
.918 2.37 Crawford
.919 2.33 Lundqvist
.919 2.32 Bishop
.920 2.42 Price
.920 2.44 Bobrovsky
.922 2.31 Holtby

Those are career numbers for each guy. These are the crop of elite goaltenders over the past decade or so. As you can see, there isn't a whole lot of difference. Quick and Crawford have both shown an ability to win big games when it matters, though, so when you stack up numbers that are this similar overall, I'll take the guy that wins when it matters. Anyone can pretend the Hawks won those Cups in spite of Crawford, but it's just not true.

Crawford elevates his game on the biggest stage. The 2013 Cup run was an incredible display of elite level goaltending. He was the MVP of the playoffs and everyone knew it. 19 quality starts out of 23. 1.84 GAA .932 save percentage.

And 2015 everyone seems to remember very well that he played poorly in round 1. Nobody seems to remember the 60 save thievery against Anaheim in game 2, or the 47 save win in game 4. The Hawks don't win that series without Crawford. And then when the Hawks go down 2-1 in the finals and the doomsayers came out, Crawford allowed 2 goals on 82 shots in the last three games, including a door slamming shutout to win the Cup on home ice.

If you can't see that this guy is an elite goaltender, you're just blatantly choosing not to.

I'm sorry but if you include Quick on an elite goaltenders list and don't include Crawford it's pretty clear that you have a bias.

.916 2.26 Quick
.918 2.37 Rinne
.918 2.37 Crawford
.919 2.33 Lundqvist
.919 2.32 Bishop
.920 2.42 Price
.920 2.44 Bobrovsky
.922 2.31 Holtby

Those are career numbers for each guy. These are the crop of elite goaltenders over the past decade or so. As you can see, there isn't a whole lot of difference. Quick and Crawford have both shown an ability to win big games when it matters, though, so when you stack up numbers that are this similar overall, I'll take the guy that wins when it matters. Anyone can pretend the Hawks won those Cups in spite of Crawford, but it's just not true.

Crawford elevates his game on the biggest stage. The 2013 Cup run was an incredible display of elite level goaltending. He was the MVP of the playoffs and everyone knew it. 19 quality starts out of 23. 1.84 GAA .932 save percentage.

And 2015 everyone seems to remember very well that he played poorly in round 1. Nobody seems to remember the 60 save thievery against Anaheim in game 2, or the 47 save win in game 4. The Hawks don't win that series without Crawford. And then when the Hawks go down 2-1 in the finals and the doomsayers came out, Crawford allowed 2 goals on 82 shots in the last three games, including a door slamming shutout to win the Cup on home ice.

If you can't see that this guy is an elite goaltender, you're just blatantly choosing not to.
- Hawks_49

I'm sorry but if you include Quick on an elite goaltenders list and don't include Crawford it's pretty clear that you have a bias.

.916 2.26 Quick
.918 2.37 Rinne
.918 2.37 Crawford
.919 2.33 Lundqvist
.919 2.32 Bishop
.920 2.42 Price
.920 2.44 Bobrovsky
.922 2.31 Holtby

Those are career numbers for each guy. These are the crop of elite goaltenders over the past decade or so. As you can see, there isn't a whole lot of difference. Quick and Crawford have both shown an ability to win big games when it matters, though, so when you stack up numbers that are this similar overall, I'll take the guy that wins when it matters. Anyone can pretend the Hawks won those Cups in spite of Crawford, but it's just not true.

Crawford elevates his game on the biggest stage. The 2013 Cup run was an incredible display of elite level goaltending. He was the MVP of the playoffs and everyone knew it. 19 quality starts out of 23. 1.84 GAA .932 save percentage.

And 2015 everyone seems to remember very well that he played poorly in round 1. Nobody seems to remember the 60 save thievery against Anaheim in game 2, or the 47 save win in game 4. The Hawks don't win that series without Crawford. And then when the Hawks go down 2-1 in the finals and the doomsayers came out, Crawford allowed 2 goals on 82 shots in the last three games, including a door slamming shutout to win the Cup on home ice.

If you can't see that this guy is an elite goaltender, you're just blatantly choosing not to.
- Hawks_49

Look, this is starting to come off like I have something against Crawford, when really i just don't think he's "elite", and everyone has their own idea/definition of what defines the elite teams/players in any given sport.

I just think based on pure eye test, and again I have NOTHING against Crawford(why would I???), that he's not quite up there. Talent wise. Pure skill at the position. Whatever you wanna call it.

And again as I've said I know he's come up big during the playoffs and won us games multiple times. I've never denied that. But the point for me is those overall teams were great, top to bottom our rosters in 2013 and 2015 were outstanding and all areas of those rosters had several clutch moments that I or anyone can list off if they wanted to, player by player. Thats partially why it was so difficult to decide the Conn Smythe, so many different options. And as the team declines(2015-present) those "Crawford elevates his game on the big stage" moments aren't happening anymore.

Now that the overall team has regressed to such an extent with its Dcore we'll see as the season progresses just how well his early season #s hold up. But either way I'm not gonna call him elite until my eye tells me different, and he's just not quite there.

Look, this is starting to come off like I have something against Crawford, when really i just don't think he's "elite", and everyone has their own idea/definition of what defines the elite teams/players in any given sport.

I just think based on pure eye test, and again I have NOTHING against Crawford(why would I???), that he's not quite up there. Talent wise. Pure skill at the position. Whatever you wanna call it.

And again as I've said I know he's come up big during the playoffs and won us games multiple times. I've never denied that. But the point for me is those overall teams were great, top to bottom our rosters in 2013 and 2015 were outstanding and all areas of those rosters had several clutch moments that I or anyone can list off if they wanted to, player by player. Thats partially why it was so difficult to decide the Conn Smythe, so many different options.
- SimpleJack

I'm picking up what you're throwing down, and that's completely fair. He sure isn't flashy or the most skilled, but I've never seen a guy battle as hard as him. He has that inner fire and an unwavering will to win at all costs. That's what I consider elite about him. He just finds a way.

I'm picking up what you're throwing down, and that's completely fair. He sure isn't flashy or the most skilled, but I've never seen a guy battle as hard as him. He has that inner fire and an unwavering will to win at all costs. That's what I consider elite about him. He just finds a way.
- Hawks_49

I totally respect that.

I totally respect that.
- SimpleJack

Well now what do we do? I guess there's always Lance Bouma

Well now what do we do? I guess there's always Lance Bouma
- Hawks_49

When that's what you're left with you know you've done some solid hockey debating

I'm all hockied-out. Think I might go watch Interstellar...

When that's what you're left with you know you've done some solid hockey debating

I'm all hockied-out. Think I might go watch Interstellar...
- SimpleJack

There's a million better ways to waste 4 hours of your life LOL

Look, this is starting to come off like I have something against Crawford, when really i just don't think he's "elite", and everyone has their own idea/definition of what defines the elite teams/players in any given sport.

I just think based on pure eye test, and again I have NOTHING against Crawford(why would I???), that he's not quite up there. Talent wise. Pure skill at the position. Whatever you wanna call it.

And again as I've said I know he's come up big during the playoffs and won us games multiple times. I've never denied that. But the point for me is those overall teams were great, top to bottom our rosters in 2013 and 2015 were outstanding and all areas of those rosters had several clutch moments that I or anyone can list off if they wanted to, player by player. Thats partially why it was so difficult to decide the Conn Smythe, so many different options. And as the team declines(2015-present) those "Crawford elevates his game on the big stage" moments aren't happening anymore.

Now that the overall team has regressed to such an extent with its Dcore we'll see as the season progresses just how well his early season #s hold up. But either way I'm not gonna call him elite until my eye tells me different, and he's just not quite there.
- SimpleJack

I fully agree with everything and I think this is unbiased view (no home bias). Crawford was outplayed by Quick in Game 7 WCF 2014 when it mattered most in their attempt to go back to back, and was saved by Darling in 2015 quest, so he did not carry the team all the way. This is not the definition of elite goaltender. As you said, he is one of the better ones and plays according to his 6 mln cap hit.
I am probably in the minority but I would take Darling at his age and cap hit over Crawford at his age and cap hit but on the other hand Crawford is not the problem, and not are the rookies.
One cannot ask from 750,000 paid rookie as much as from 4.5 mln Anisimov or 7 mln Seabrook or 10.5 mln wonder twins. Or coach with his counry club environment. Wonder if we can trade Q for Tort from CBJ for a year or 2 to light some fire behind entitled players.

I fully agree with everything and I think this is unbiased view (no home bias). Crawford was outplayed by Quick in Game 7 WCF 2014 when it mattered most in their attempt to go back to back, and was saved by Darling in 2015 quest, so he did not carry the team all the way. This is not the definition of elite goaltender. As you said, he is one of the better ones and plays according to his 6 mln cap hit.
I am probably in the minority but I would take Darling at his age and cap hit over Crawford at his age and cap hit but on the other hand Crawford is not the problem, and not are the rookies.
One cannot ask from 750,000 paid rookie as much as from 4.5 mln Anisimov or 7 mln Seabrook or 10.5 mln wonder twins. Or coach with his counry club environment. Wonder if we can trade Q for Tort from CBJ for a year or 2 to light some fire behind entitled players.
- vshun

Couldn't have said it better myself