He's not wrong though. It is how you win in the playoffs and it's something that Keefe never seemed to grasp. Yes Holl did get called on a play that no one ever gets called for - but it's also because it was so atypical of a Leaf to be doing something like that.

If they did it all the time like Boston, Tampa, Florida, Vegas, Dallas, Carolina, the Islanders and the Jets - they might draw a penalty here and there, but it would be common place for their system and refs just ignore it.

I always sort of felt that Keefe's PK was so weak that the Leafs lived by the mantra of never getting penalized - but as we've seen the "game management" aspect of hockey does poop for you in terms of getting real benefits. As a pretty soft and clean team:

Last year we had 238 for and 238 against and outscored the opposition 57-55.
In 22-23 we had 246 for and 248 against and outscored the opposition 64-45.
In 21-22 we had 231 for and 234 against and outscored the opposition 63-42.
In 20-21 we had 155 for and 144 against and scoring was even at 31-31 (56 games)
In 19-20 we had 195 for and 193 against and scoring was 45-43
In 18-19 211-204 and 46-41
In 17-18 224-231 and 56-43
In 16-17 244-251 and 57-44

. . .and the year before Matthews for poops & giggles:

In 15-16 259-272 and 40-50

To me the fact that the Leafs have drawn more power plays than they've received three times in 9 years is honestly surprising - and they have pretty much outscored that problem in almost every year.

Because the Leafs do run their powerplay through Marner, they need to start executing plays that create room for the primary distributor because in the playoffs gaps are tighter, people get less room to move and there's less useful open space . . . And let's not make this about Marner - let's say it was Domi or Nylander or Rielly - I don't care. Whoever has the role of primarily distributing the puck needs more clear lanes to make that PP work better.
- Monkeypunk

I missed Cush's reply the first time.

I didn't say it to rub it in anybody's face or dredge up bad memories. I also remember that particular game and yes, the refs were smoking crack like they always do. But, MonkeyPunk is right insofar as interference being a part of Tampa's system. It worked so well because the coach allowed/encouraged it and the players involved had great chemistry and could anticipate each other's moves and lanes. If the Lightning got called for every pick they set, they'd spend 20 minutes of every game in the box. The refs just wouldn't call it unless it was blatant.

Toronto does it once and it's immediately obvious and the refs get hardons.

I expect Berube will not be adverse to using borderline/illegal poop like picks. And frankly, if the league is gonna be wishy washy about it, then take full advantage. Just like the LTIR nonsense.

I think a guy the organization just signed a 2 year deal with on June 30th is part of their plans yes. Not sure where you are getting that he doesn't fit under the GM's style since the GM extended him? If it was to sign an trade I think he would have already been gone.

So you feel Patches is needed at LW on what line? The most games he has played in a season since 2019-2020 is 48 and he played 47 last year and was a lovely -14. The guy is 35 today and will be 36 in November - IMO he's toast. I'd try starting with Knies, Robertson (unless his deal was a sign and trade) and McMann in the top 9 sure. 4th line LW can be just about anyone they have in the system who is defensively responsible and can cause some chaos and bring some energy and throw the body.

I'd also give some thought to seeing if Willy or Marner is willing to try sliding over to the Left side to provide more options.

The Leafs making panic moves and shipping out young-ish RHD seems like the type of move that a few years from now we will all be complaining about to me is all.

Guess we will see because they definatley need to make some moves if they intend on signing Patches and Lorenz out of camp - moving Timmons only gives them the cap space they need for Hawk-Tuah and Robertson but nothing beyond that.

At least there is some interesting stuff happening and we may see some more changes I guess. I won't lie a fairly big trade would be fun to see happen for the discussions it'll prompt.
- Cush29

Every team needs an OGWAC.

He's not wrong though. It is how you win in the playoffs and it's something that Keefe never seemed to grasp. Yes Holl did get called on a play that no one ever gets called for - but it's also because it was so atypical of a Leaf to be doing something like that.

If they did it all the time like Boston, Tampa, Florida, Vegas, Dallas, Carolina, the Islanders and the Jets - they might draw a penalty here and there, but it would be common place for their system and refs just ignore it.

I always sort of felt that Keefe's PK was so weak that the Leafs lived by the mantra of never getting penalized - but as we've seen the "game management" aspect of hockey does poop for you in terms of getting real benefits. As a pretty soft and clean team:

Last year we had 238 for and 238 against and outscored the opposition 57-55.
In 22-23 we had 246 for and 248 against and outscored the opposition 64-45.
In 21-22 we had 231 for and 234 against and outscored the opposition 63-42.
In 20-21 we had 155 for and 144 against and scoring was even at 31-31 (56 games)
In 19-20 we had 195 for and 193 against and scoring was 45-43
In 18-19 211-204 and 46-41
In 17-18 224-231 and 56-43
In 16-17 244-251 and 57-44

. . .and the year before Matthews for poops & giggles:

In 15-16 259-272 and 40-50

To me the fact that the Leafs have drawn more power plays than they've received three times in 9 years is honestly surprising - and they have pretty much outscored that problem in almost every year.

Because the Leafs do run their powerplay through Marner, they need to start executing plays that create room for the primary distributor because in the playoffs gaps are tighter, people get less room to move and there's less useful open space . . . And let's not make this about Marner - let's say it was Domi or Nylander or Rielly - I don't care. Whoever has the role of primarily distributing the puck needs more clear lanes to make that PP work better.
- Monkeypunk

Easy to say the Leafs should do these things more (and for the record I don't disagree) BUT it feels like when they do try to do the things we often say the 'playoff savy' teams do they just get killed with penalties for it.

The Leafs PP could/should have been on the back of a milk carton last playoffs and in reality that probably is the biggest cause of their playoff departure.

The Holl pick play call was BS in a game 7 on a tying goal, extra S on the BS when the 1st goal (I think it was the first one?) the great Nick Paul scored was a direct result of Jake Muzzin being hit way after the puck is gone (in fact it's already in soeone else's possession) essentially running a pick play right in front of the ref and no calll - while a 3 on 2 happened the other way.

Want to get angry? Here is the video - about the 25 second mark but if you want to see something that the Leafs also need more of watch the video from the start and you will see Marner throw a hit - he needs to do more of that too, all their highly skilled guys do vs the curl off or do everything to avoid a hit.

I think you're probably right. Treliving and Berube had already been working together for 6 weeks when they resigned Liljegren.

They have $30k in cap space right now with a 13-7-2 (22 man) roster that does not include Timmins. He was also a Dubas acquisition and while I do like his play, he doesn't have a noticeable physical game.

From a fan's perspective, while Liljegren has failed to play consistently enough to establish himself as a top-4D, Timmins hasn't played consistently enough to establish himself as a bottom pair guy.

If someone has to go, I have to believe it'll be Timmins.

Now here's the kicker - if Pacioretty actually impresses (I doubt this very, very much) or if Lorentz does - or both - then the landscape may change and trading Holmberg or Robertson or both - or whatever - might require more cap movement and suddenly Timmins draws back into the picture because he's only $1.1m on the cap.
- Monkeypunk

Agree with this ^ but in defense of Timmins (no pun intended) he has only been given a sliver of the opportunity Lilly has in Toronto to prove his worth. It probably doesn't matter and the Leafs developed Lilly so they are likley more sweet on him over Timmins but I do feel like Timmins will end up as a 4/5 D man at least somewhere and the Leafs may have sellers remorse but it is what it is.

https://x.com/TLNdc/status/1834026642295111702


These two should be fun to watch this year. 67 is here to break the curse.

I hate this move but it probably happens. I don't feel like he was every given a fair shot here, again another 25 year old RHD - why wouldn't' they give him a real shot? Sigh.
- Cush29

You are the one guy here that is making sense.

I missed Cush's reply the first time.

I didn't say it to rub it in anybody's face or dredge up bad memories. I also remember that particular game and yes, the refs were smoking crack like they always do. But, MonkeyPunk is right insofar as interference being a part of Tampa's system. It worked so well because the coach allowed/encouraged it and the players involved had great chemistry and could anticipate each other's moves and lanes. If the Lightning got called for every pick they set, they'd spend 20 minutes of every game in the box. The refs just wouldn't call it unless it was blatant.

Toronto does it once and it's immediately obvious and the refs get hardons.

I expect Berube will not be adverse to using borderline/illegal poop like picks. And frankly, if the league is gonna be wishy washy about it, then take full advantage. Just like the LTIR nonsense.
- GalacticStone

I was mostly poking fun at you but it's also pretty frusterating as a Leaf fan to see other teams do this poop non-stop with immunity and then when the Leafs try it they get smacked with a penalty. The game 7 goals are just salt in the wound really but great examples of the double standard (created by officials and to some degree the teams and how they play).

Maybe Berube as coach will shift the mentality and the Leafs will be viewed more as a team that 'plays tough' or whatever you want to call it and the Leafs will start to get away with more of the stuff we see so many other teams they have faced in the playoffs (Tampa, Boston, Florida) get away with for a long time. We can only hope so, because the flip side of that coin is that as long as the Leafs have insane high end skill / talent offensively that is somewhat to definitely soft they will continue to be viewed as a skill first / puck possession team and they will continue to be under more scrutiny when they do the things we all agree they need to do if they want to beat that teams that do them so well and have for so long.

Easy to say the Leafs should do these things more (and for the record I don't disagree) BUT it feels like when they do try to do the things we often say the 'playoff savy' teams do they just get killed with penalties for it.


- Cush29

Exactly. That's not a coincidence. No Canadian team will ever win in Buttman's new NHL unless they overcome supremely overwhelming odds. Scoff at me if you disagree, but it's true.
The Oilers and Leafs would be the ultimate final match-up, but it won't be allowed to happen.

You are the one guy here that is making sense.
- TroyTech

I'm big on Timmins too. Hopefully, they can keep him around because the Leafs are almost certainly going to run into injury issues on the back end.

https://x.com/TLNdc/status/1834026642295111702


These two should be fun to watch this year. 67 is here to break the curse.
- Snot Dillingham

Alright, I just instantly became a 67 fan.

I think a guy the organization just signed a 2 year deal with on June 30th is part of their plans yes. Not sure where you are getting that he doesn't fit under the GM's style since the GM extended him? If it was to sign an trade I think he would have already been gone.

So you feel Patches is needed at LW on what line? The most games he has played in a season since 2019-2020 is 48 and he played 47 last year and was a lovely -14. The guy is 35 today and will be 36 in November - IMO he's toast. I'd try starting with Knies, Robertson (unless his deal was a sign and trade) and McMann in the top 9 sure. 4th line LW can be just about anyone they have in the system who is defensively responsible and can cause some chaos and bring some energy and throw the body.

I'd also give some thought to seeing if Willy or Marner is willing to try sliding over to the Left side to provide more options.

The Leafs making panic moves and shipping out young-ish RHD seems like the type of move that a few years from now we will all be complaining about to me is all.

Guess we will see because they definatley need to make some moves if they intend on signing Patches and Lorenz out of camp - moving Timmons only gives them the cap space they need for Hawk-Tuah and Robertson but nothing beyond that.

At least there is some interesting stuff happening and we may see some more changes I guess. I won't lie a fairly big trade would be fun to see happen for the discussions it'll prompt.
- Cush29

Alright let’s be clear. I don’t give a rat’s ass if they sign Pacioretty at all, I can just see why. It’s obviously a camp for him to prove he’s worth signing if they want his veteran experience.

As for Liljegren him being signed doesn’t mean anything. He’s a bottom pairing guy who doesn’t fit the GM or coaches style. He may have been signed so the team who’s interested in him will trade for him, that would be nothing new. I don’t like keeping him, he won’t line up to Berube’s type of game at all. They’re now going to like bigger guys who can play physical, even the puck movers, and that’s not Liljegren.

People need to stop thinking bottom six and bottom pairing guys have their spots locked in, we don’t even know what each player will look like under the new coach. There’s some surprises coming and I’m sure of it.

what in the what has gotten into Bowden Francis?

Paul Skenes who is the best prospect since baseball was invented apparently ..has had as many good starts all season as BF has 5/6
https://x.com/tangotiger/...tatus/1834232877698990255

historically one of the best 6 start runs ever ..like ..wut

Exactly. That's not a coincidence. No Canadian team will ever win in Buttman's new NHL unless they overcome supremely overwhelming odds. Scoff at me if you disagree, but it's true.
The Oilers and Leafs would be the ultimate final match-up, but it won't be allowed to happen.
- TroyTech

I dislike Gary Bettman as much as anyone - he's just got a face you want to smack, little weasel like lawyer.

That being said so many people think he has so much power that he just doesn't have, this is what he can do / his madate:

The commissioner's duties are spelled out as having "responsibility for the general supervision and direction of all business and affairs of the league", co-ordinates matters between member clubs and serves as the principal public spokesman for the league. The commissioner also has authority over dispute resolution, league committees, interpretation of league rules, appointment of league staff, NHL financial matters, contracting authority, scheduling, officials and disciplinary powers.[2] The commissioner also determines the date and places of board of governors meetings.

The commissioner is elected to the position by the Board Of Governors and the reality is that group of individuals holds an exceptional amount of power, far exceeding the Commissioner. The Chairman of that Board is the owner of the Boston Bruins - Jeremy Jacobs.

This is the power / authority / mandate the Board of Governors has:

- review and approve any changes to the league's rules.
- hiring and firing of the commissioner.
- review and approve the purchase, sale or relocation of any member club.
- review and approve the salary caps for member clubs.
- review and approve any changes to the structure of the game schedule.

So if we want to point the finger at things like why there are only 7 Canadian teams in a 32 team league & we keep seeing more and more US teams (even ones who get a 2nd chance after failure) we can point directly at the Board of Governors and not necessarily the Commissioner.

Statistically with only 7 Canadian teams in the league the odds of it being won by a Canadian team are much much lower than a "US team" winning it. I mean 7 teams but only 2 divisions- so for instance only 1 of Montreal or Toronto or Ottawa (LMAO) could even make it to the cup final or 1 of Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver or Winnipeg could be in the final.

Bettman is the 'talking head' for the Board of Governors - he's the face behind the decisions the board makes which IMO appear in many cases to be business driven (aka how can we make the most money) vs what is good for the game of hockey and it's fans. Bettman is seen as and plays the part of the bad guy very well and he is VERY well compensated for it.....

In the 2023-24 season, Gary Bettman's annual salary as the NHL Commissioner is reported to be $9,500,000, ranking 40th among sports executives

I'd be shocked - I personally don't think they re-signed a 25 year old RHD at the end of June this year to a 2 year deal to turn around & trade him.

I also hope the Leafs don't sign Pathes, I feel like he's toast.

Id' rather they let a young kid on a cheap deal play and prove to the young talent they have that there is opportunity within the organization, I'm sure many of them are watching the Robertson situation closely.
- Cush29

Saw a few caps fans saying Patches looked great the final 10-15 games. Started his season in January after lots of time off…

News is he has a great off season and is healthy.

I think people are sleeping on him. He could be a solid player here and score 25.

Or at least be a Spezza which was pretty great.

Robertsons attitude is (frank)ing horrible and I don’t want him around this team anymore anyways. It’s too bad I liked him until this drama.

Alright, I just instantly became a 67 fan.
- Whipper

Im guessing more fans will when hes our top line LW.

Biz is being conservative with his 30 tucks prediction playing with M&M

Alright let’s be clear. I don’t give a rat’s ass if they sign Pacioretty at all, I can just see why. It’s obviously a camp for him to prove he’s worth signing if they want his veteran experience.

As for Liljegren him being signed doesn’t mean anything. He’s a bottom pairing guy who doesn’t fit the GM or coaches style. He may have been signed so the team who’s interested in him will trade for him, that would be nothing new. I don’t like keeping him, he won’t line up to Berube’s type of game at all. They’re now going to like bigger guys who can play physical, even the puck movers, and that’s not Liljegren.

People need to stop thinking bottom six and bottom pairing guys have their spots locked in, we don’t even know what each player will look like under the new coach. There’s some surprises coming and I’m sure of it.
- Dozzer

Lol you lost me as soon as you said a guy being re-signed to a 2 year deal on June 30th means nothing along with him not 'fitting the GM's style' - that GM is the one who re-singed him FFS.

I'm not even a big Lilly fan (he had a terrible playoff) but I've also read several projected d pairings for the Leafs this year that have him in the 4 spot.

You don't like the player and that's fine and you want him gone, that's fine too but when you go down the road of "people need to stop thinking X, Y or Z" because it's not how or what you think it makes having a meaningful discussion or exchange of opinions impossible.

Changes are coming regardless that much we can agree on.

I'll just bow out of this conversation vs it spiral - agree to disagree and we will see how it plays out.

Have a good day.

Leafs will regret letting Timmins go, if that’s the route they take. In my mind he has a much bigger upside than Lilly.

what the hell for

Alright let’s be clear. I don’t give a rat’s ass if they sign Pacioretty at all, I can just see why. It’s obviously a camp for him to prove he’s worth signing if they want his veteran experience.

As for Liljegren him being signed doesn’t mean anything. He’s a bottom pairing guy who doesn’t fit the GM or coaches style. He may have been signed so the team who’s interested in him will trade for him, that would be nothing new. I don’t like keeping him, he won’t line up to Berube’s type of game at all. They’re now going to like bigger guys who can play physical, even the puck movers, and that’s not Liljegren.

People need to stop thinking bottom six and bottom pairing guys have their spots locked in, we don’t even know what each player will look like under the new coach. There’s some surprises coming and I’m sure of it.
- Dozzer

Treliving has said multiple times you need 8 or 9 NHL D for playoffs.

Like it or not it’s how he builds his teams. They likely will lose Timmins(hope he passes through waivers) and then they have 7.

There’s no chance they trade any D away.

The math is pretty obvious to me…it’s timmins through waivers and then Robertson traded.

Im guessing more fans will when hes our top line LW.

Biz is being conservative with his 30 tucks prediction playing with M&M

- Snot Dillingham

Top line LW?


No shot - he couldn't keep up!

I dislike Gary Bettman as much as anyone - he's just got a face you want to smack, little weasel like lawyer.

That being said so many people think he has so much power that he just doesn't have, this is what he can do / his madate:

The commissioner's duties are spelled out as having "responsibility for the general supervision and direction of all business and affairs of the league", co-ordinates matters between member clubs and serves as the principal public spokesman for the league. The commissioner also has authority over dispute resolution, league committees, interpretation of league rules, appointment of league staff, NHL financial matters, contracting authority, scheduling, officials and disciplinary powers.
- Cush29[2] The commissioner also determines the date and places of board of governors meetings.

The commissioner is elected to the position by the Board Of Governors and the reality is that group of individuals holds an exceptional amount of power, far exceeding the Commissioner. The Chairman of that Board is the owner of the Boston Bruins - Jeremy Jacobs.

This is the power / authority / mandate the Board of Governors has:

- review and approve any changes to the league's rules.
- hiring and firing of the commissioner.
- review and approve the purchase, sale or relocation of any member club.
- review and approve the salary caps for member clubs.
- review and approve any changes to the structure of the game schedule.

So if we want to point the finger at things like why there are only 7 Canadian teams in a 32 team league & we keep seeing more and more US teams (even ones who get a 2nd chance after failure) we can point directly at the Board of Governors and not necessarily the Commissioner.

Statistically with only 7 Canadian teams in the league the odds of it being won by a Canadian team are much much lower than a "US team" winning it. I mean 7 teams but only 2 divisions- so for instance only 1 of Montreal or Toronto or Ottawa (LMAO) could even make it to the cup final or 1 of Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver or Winnipeg could be in the final.

Bettman is the 'talking head' for the Board of Governors - he's the face behind the decisions the board makes which IMO appear in many cases to be business driven (aka how can we make the most money) vs what is good for the game of hockey and it's fans. Bettman is seen as and plays the part of the bad guy very well and he is VERY well compensated for it.....

In the 2023-24 season, Gary Bettman's annual salary as the NHL Commissioner is reported to be $9,500,000, ranking 40th among sports executives

The biggest individual part of Gary's job is managing the egos of 30 billionaires and trying to get them to cooperate.

He still has his job because he is incredibly effective at shielding the team owners from their own worst impulses.

Ok, probably a bad comparison in that aspect. But, he's back and playing again. Next injury for Haak probably ends his career.
- GalacticStone

what if his next injury is to his wrist?

Top line LW?


No shot - he couldn't keep up!
- Cush29

it's all bout positivity and beleaf

Top line LW?


No shot - he couldn't keep up!
- Cush29

You don't like the player and that's fine.

I'll just bow out of this conversation vs it spiral - agree to disagree and we will see how it plays out.

Have a good day.

Ok, this is not a popular take, but here goes...

I'd rather Timmins over Haaktuah.

If this was the Haaktuah of a few seasons ago, then I'd think differently.

Shopping for D in the bargain bin rarely works out and Haaktuah is one bad check or awkward fall away from LTIR.

He either pulls a Muzzin and performs well enough to raise hopes before ending up on LTIR.

Or, he pulls a Klinger and ends up on LTIR before the season really gets going.

At least Timmins isn't made of glass and still has room to progress. I think it's a safe bet we already know what we have with Timmins, but at 26, he could be a late bloomer d-man.

If Lily wasn't overpaid AF, I'd say the same thing about him, but he should be getting Timmins money.

At least it's only one year of term. If his bones hold up, then resign him next season.
- GalacticStone

OEL's signing killed Timmin's entire purpose.