I agree that Kellen Moore called the play but the HC has something to do with everything. Their defensive line is just bad. Edge rushers, Carter and Davis are just no shows.
- MJL

I view the HC as a figure head, I don't think he has much say anymore.
The defense was just brutal, where was RedRichards replacement?

And does come down to Barkley making the catch.

No need for any documentation cause I was referring to me, myself and I. Just go look at TK's numbers after he was benched by Torts for that 3rd period along with Hayes.
- Phillywhiteout

Document that Konecny's numbers and production increased after he was benched by Tortorella. I thought you didn't like stats?

Document that Konecny's numbers and production increased after he was benched by Tortorella. I thought you didn't like stats?
- MJL

Sometimes they really do mean something and this is one of those times. He took the next step in his career after that benching. You could see it from his play on the ice and the uptick in his production on the stat sheet.

Travis Konecny through his first 233 NHL games had a season high point total of 49 points. Morgan Frost through his first 229 NHL games had a season high point total of 46 points.
- MJL

I understand what you are saying by the numbers, but there is a lot more to it than that. TK and Frost are very different players and different personalities. I don't see Frost ever becoming the player TK is, not because he doesn't have the size or skill, but because he just doesn't have the "it" factor IMO.

Sometimes they really do mean something and this is one of those times. He took the next step in his career after that benching. You could see it from his play on the ice and the uptick in his production on the stat sheet.
- Phillywhiteout

No, that's not true. Konecny was simply maturing as a player and Tortorella really didn't have a whole lot to do with it. Tortorella did help some. I give him credit for putting Konecny on the PK, which has made him a better all around player and for instilling structure in the team game. Overall though, Konecny's improvement was due to experience and maturity.

I understand what you are saying by the numbers, but there is a lot more to it than that. TK and Frost are very different players and different personalities. I don't see Frost ever becoming the player TK is, not because he doesn't have the size or skill, but because he just doesn't have the "it" factor IMO.
- jd250

You badly missed the point. You're also showing your ignorance. Frost has overcome every obstacle put in his way to steadily improve as a player. Including bad development coaching by both Yeo and Tortorella. Being yo-yoed in and out of the lineup and missing almost a full season due to injury. I don't expect Frost to become the player that Konecny is but to say that there is not room for growth or more potential still there after 229 games, is ignorant.

No, that's not true. Konecny was simply maturing as a player and Tortorella really didn't have a whole lot to do with it. Tortorella did help some. I give him credit for putting Konecny on the PK, which has made him a better all around player and for instilling structure in the team game. Overall though, Konecny's improvement was due to experience and maturity.
- MJL

then you can say that about every player then, no? yet you rip on torts for not developing any players.

so, which is it the coach or the players responsible for the majority of their development?

You badly missed the point. You're also showing your ignorance. Frost has overcome every obstacle put in his way to steadily improve as a player. Including bad development coaching by both Yeo and Tortorella. Being yo-yoed in and out of the lineup and missing almost a full season due to injury. I don't expect Frost to become the player that Konecny is but to say that there is not room for growth or more potential still there after 229 games, is ignorant.
- MJL

you just said a player's development is due to their experience and maturity, which is it?

who said there is no room for growth? what was said is, is it possible this is who he is at this point.

Perhaps it is the rational thing to do in the range where they pick. If there is a high skill player who has dropped to 10 or later in draft, something is likely missing.

The bigger issue of course, is why are you picking in that range, year after year?
- PT21

My best guess would be like everyone else....not good enough and not bad enough at the same time.

For me it will always go back to not having that one or two or three high end elite players that get you out of purgatory. It's a silly example, but the Flyers need that top end receiver that draws double coverage, makes the other team change strategy while opening up possibilities for the other receivers.

Sure the team could go out and grind it out, have the hardest working team and win some games, but they won't be able to sustain that night after night without losing some games as well. That's where the Flyers are, they got some good things, but no great things. Then the team ends up finishing in the same spots drafting the same players. Repeat.

My best guess would be like everyone else....not good enough and not bad enough at the same time.

For me it will always go back to not having that one or two or three high end elite players that get you out of purgatory. It's a silly example, but the Flyers need that top end receiver that draws double coverage, makes the other team change strategy while opening up possibilities for the other receivers.

Sure the team could go out and grind it out, have the hardest working team and win some games, but they won't be able to sustain that night after night without losing some games as well. That's where the Flyers are, they got some good things, but no great things. Then the team ends up finishing in the same spots drafting the same players. Repeat.
- Glak18

This is a microcosm of last season. The Flyers in order to compete last season, had to play at a playoff level intensity all season. They had to play with max intensity. Very difficult to that physically and emotionally all season. They couldn't keep it up and as other teams ramped up their intensity later in the season. It caught up to the Flyers. Teams with top skill don't have to do that all season long and can build to the playoffs
They win games with their skill players making plays and with the PP. They conserve energy with efficiency and skill

This is a microcosm of last season. The Flyers in order to compete last season, had to play at a playoff level intensity all season. They had to play with max intensity. Very difficult to that physically and emotionally all season. They couldn't keep it up and as other teams ramped up their intensity later in the season. It caught up to the Flyers. Teams with top skill don't have to do that all season long and can build to the playoffs
They win games with their skill players making plays and with the PP. They conserve energy with efficiency and skill
- MJL

Exactly, I'm sure there are many other factors, but to put it crudely the Flyers have to shoot their load way too soon to just hang in.

I'm hoping Michkov helps, but he has a lot of proving and earning to do. His first season is going to be tough, really tough. Not only his age and language barrier, but everyone is going to take runs at him and test him to see if he crumbles. He's not just a young player, he is clearly a favorite for the Calder and has hype coming in the league. He is going to be frustrating at times and hopefully someone else steps up to take the heat off.

You badly missed the point. You're also showing your ignorance. Frost has overcome every obstacle put in his way to steadily improve as a player. Including bad development coaching by both Yeo and Tortorella. Being yo-yoed in and out of the lineup and missing almost a full season due to injury. I don't expect Frost to become the player that Konecny is but to say that there is not room for growth or more potential still there after 229 games, is ignorant.
- MJL

I will refrain from calling you ignorant simply because we disagree on a point. IMO, its not about the number of games or the age of the player. Clearly players can be late bloomers and I perceive that is what you are pointing to here, that Frost will be a late bloomer because of the injuries he sustained that knocked a year or more off his development and your perceived bad coaching he received. On the former point there is no argument, but on the latter point I simply disagree with you. I thought the coaching Yeo gave Frost was invaluable and spot on. Frost did not have a good 200 foot game when Yeo started to work with him, nor was Frost asserting himself enough on the ice. Yeo really helped him here. With Torts, Frost was just not doing what he needed to do consistently enough. Too many games where Frost was completely invisible. As Torts has stated, and I 100% agree with, once a player shows you what they are capable of, as a coach you want to see that consistently. Whether you want to accept it or not, Frost was not consistently showing what he was capable of doing. Torts benched him and pushed him and frankly it worked, because until the last two weeks of the season, Frost was playing much more consistently. Torts deserves credit for that whether you like it or not.

I will refrain from calling you ignorant simply because we disagree on a point. IMO, its not about the number of games or the age of the player. Clearly players can be late bloomers and I perceive that is what you are pointing to here, that Frost will be a late bloomer because of the injuries he sustained that knocked a year or more off his development and your perceived bad coaching he received. On the former point there is no argument, but on the latter point I simply disagree with you. I thought the coaching Yeo gave Frost was invaluable and spot on. Frost did not have a good 200 foot game when Yeo started to work with him, nor was Frost asserting himself enough on the ice. Yeo really helped him here. With Torts, Frost was just not doing what he needed to do consistently enough. Too many games where Frost was completely invisible. As Torts has stated, and I 100% agree with, once a player shows you what they are capable of, as a coach you want to see that consistently. Whether you want to accept it or not, Frost was not consistently showing what he was capable of doing. Torts benched him and pushed him and frankly it worked, because until the last two weeks of the season, Frost was playing much more consistently. Torts deserves credit for that whether you like it or not.
- jd250

Frost won't be a late bloomer. If he does he will have bloomed when the overwhelming number of non elite NHL players bloom. He has played two full NHL season and 229 overall. As I posted earlier, Frost has a career high 46 points after 229 games played. Konecny has 49 after 233 points. If Frost is going to take a jump, this is the year to expect it.
Yeo's methods were archaic and awful. It is the equivalent of making a player play with his oft hand stick. He and the Flyers have generally had their development strategies completely backwards. Hopefully they don't do that with Michkov.
Tortorella's overall handling of Frost has been horrendous. He has deterred Frost's development with his biases. Frost has played the best when Tortorella has stopped jacking with him and left him alone. That is the fact that you are ignorant to.

This is a microcosm of last season. The Flyers in order to compete last season, had to play at a playoff level intensity all season. They had to play with max intensity. Very difficult to that physically and emotionally all season. They couldn't keep it up and as other teams ramped up their intensity later in the season. It caught up to the Flyers. Teams with top skill don't have to do that all season long and can build to the playoffs
They win games with their skill players making plays and with the PP. They conserve energy with efficiency and skill
- MJL

Yes, because the Flyers did not have the talent level of other good teams in the league. For the Flyers to win they had to play intense hockey and clean hockey, and that is hard to do game in and game out. That is why the Flyers were a bubble team last year. this year with Michkov and what i hope to be growth in the younger players, I think the Flyers will be a better team and may start to win some games based on more talent, but the other teams around them are better too.

Frost won't be a late bloomer. If he does he will have bloomed when the overwhelming number of non elite NHL players bloom. He has played two full NHL season and 229 overall. As I posted earlier, Frost has a career high 46 points after 229 games played. Konecny has 49 after 233 points. If Frost is going to take a jump, this is the year to expect it.
Yeo's methods were archaic and awful. It is the equivalent of making a player play with his oft hand stick. He and the Flyers have generally had their development strategies completely backwards. Hopefully they don't do that with Michkov.
Tortorella's overall handling of Frost has been horrendous. He has deterred Frost's development with his biases.
- MJL

TK was also several years younger, does that factor in at all?

according to you TK was responsible for the high majority of his development by his maturing and experience. are you holding frost to the same standards?

so, which is it the coach or the player mainly responsible? love to hear your opinion on the matter. also refresh the boards memory as to what Yeo did that was so archaic and awful.

Frost won't be a late bloomer. If he does he will have bloomed when the overwhelming number of non elite NHL players bloom. He has played two full NHL season and 229 overall. As I posted earlier, Frost has a career high 46 points after 229 games played. Konecny has 49 after 233 points. If Frost is going to take a jump, this is the year to expect it.
Yeo's methods were archaic and awful. It is the equivalent of making a player play with his oft hand stick. He and the Flyers have generally had their development strategies completely backwards. Hopefully they don't do that with Michkov.
Tortorella's overall handling of Frost has been horrendous. He has deterred Frost's development with his biases.
- MJL

I think that is called the stranger.

Yes, because the Flyers did not have the talent level of other good teams in the league. For the Flyers to win they had to play intense hockey and clean hockey, and that is hard to do game in and game out. That is why the Flyers were a bubble team last year. this year with Michkov and what i hope to be growth in the younger players, I think the Flyers will be a better team and may start to win some games based on more talent, but the other teams around them are better too.
- jd250

that is flyers hockey baby. all about culture. what is clean hockey?

do you factor in any regression from the "young" players? you always just talk about how they will improve.

No, that's not true. Konecny was simply maturing as a player and Tortorella really didn't have a whole lot to do with it. Tortorella did help some. I give him credit for putting Konecny on the PK, which has made him a better all around player and for instilling structure in the team game. Overall though, Konecny's improvement was due to experience and maturity.
- MJL

Lol any facts to back that up or is this you speculating?

No, that's not true. Konecny was simply maturing as a player and Tortorella really didn't have a whole lot to do with it. Tortorella did help some. I give him credit for putting Konecny on the PK, which has made him a better all around player and for instilling structure in the team game. Overall though, Konecny's improvement was due to experience and maturity.
- MJL

I would think Torts has had a positive effect on TKs game…is he the #1 reason? I wouldn’t think so. I think TK has matured and honestly the number one factor for a players success is, has always been, and will always be for the MOST part on the player himself.

I would think Torts has had a positive effect on TKs game…is he the #1 reason? I wouldn’t think so. I think TK has matured and honestly the number one factor for a players success is, has always been, and will always be for the MOST part on the player himself.
- landros 2

As I posted earlier, the effect that Tortorella has had is instilling team structure and playing Konecny on the PP. Most talented players, all they need is opportunity. It's what Tippett needed after coming over from Florida. Tortorella demands work ethic but Konecny already had that. Konecny has matured and he was going to take these steps at that point, regardless of who the coach was in my opinion. Frost, despite Tortorella's biases against him has shown to be a solid all around player who most of all, just needs opportunity and for Tortorella to stop screwing with him. Give him that opportunity and see what happens. If that is done, then it is all on Frost.

As I posted earlier, the effect that Tortorella has had is instilling team structure and playing Konecny on the PP. Most talented players, all they need is opportunity. It's what Tippett needed after coming over from Florida. Tortorella demands work ethic but Konecny already had that. Konecny has matured and he was going to take these steps at that point, regardless of who the coach was in my opinion. Frost, despite Tortorella's biases against him has shown to be a solid all around player who most of all, just needs opportunity and for Tortorella to stop screwing with him. Give him that opportunity and see what happens. If that is done, then it is all on Frost.
- MJL

I heard frost led a bad team in points for a third of a season once 😆

I understand what you are saying by the numbers, but there is a lot more to it than that. TK and Frost are very different players and different personalities. I don't see Frost ever becoming the player TK is, not because he doesn't have the size or skill, but because he just doesn't have the "it" factor IMO.
- jd250

Nobody thought TK had the "it" factor either until he stepped up when Claude left.

He was Frost before Frost, except he was harder to coach and had a worse attitude. Once the coaches got out of his way he started to flourish.

Nobody thought TK had the "it" factor either until he stepped up when Claude left.

He was Frost before Frost, except he was harder to coach and had a worse attitude. Once the coaches got out of his way he started to flourish.
- Tomahawk

do not see any "it" factor with tk.

Nobody thought TK had the "it" factor either until he stepped up when Claude left.

He was Frost before Frost, except he was harder to coach and had a worse attitude. Once the coaches got out of his way he started to flourish.
- Tomahawk

This is categorically false. None of this is even remotely true.

do not see any "it" factor with tk.
- hello it's me 2050

Agreed, TK disappears too much and misses to many games to have the IT factor. He is good bit not great.