I'm not sure how PTOs work, can another team look at what he's done and offer him a contract, or do the Leafs have dibs?
- Whipper

he can be offered an NHL contract by another team

I watched the middle period and then some highlights on NHL.com and a few Leafs blogs.

It's the first game of the preseason, so all observations should be taken with a generous sprinkling of salt.

Somehow, the Leafs never seem to address their backend issues (heh), despite perpetually bringing in new supporting cast members for Rielly. Poor suffering Rielly who has been pegged as a #1, when on any deep team he would be a #2 or #3 at best. I'm sure Rielly is happy to have a healthy Tanev to share the firing squad with. Both of them are lined up, blind-folded, have cigarettes dangling from their lips, and both are just waiting for the crack of the muzzle.

Rielly, always the bride and never the bridesmaid.

Get used to this version of OEL. For a guy who came out of a tire-fire in the West, I've actually watched a bit of his game over the years. If you are hoping to find the right partner to carry OEL's defensive dead weight, good luck finding that guy on this roster. Who? McCabe? Why punish poor McCabe like that? McCabe is solid, but is he good enough to have a partner who can't defend? Unless OEL puts up Norris numbers, any pairing he is on will be dragged down. Get used to it. He flourised on the Panthers, because of depth and role. Maybe Berube remolds him....

It's pretty obvious that Lily and Benoit are not top-4 guys. If you have either or both of them in your top-4, then you have problems that remain unaddressed.

If Tanev pulls a Muzzin, you are back at square one.

Up front : no worries. Everything will pan out offensively. It looked like a mess, but it always does in the preseason. The offense will settle in and be fine. Patches will probably stay and do fine until he gets hurt again, which is hopefully during the Leafs Cup parade when he drunkenly trips, falls, tears his Achilles again, and drops the Cup in the gutter.
- GalacticStone

Understanding that the goal is to get better than last year, not replicate it - last year Benoit, despite my personal misgivings which echoed yours, fared okay in a top-4 role with McCabe.

They played the 2nd most minutes of any defensive pairing on the team - often as the shutdown pairing - and owned 50.6% of the expected goals (not great, but Rielly-Brodie was 47.1% by comparison - and these were really the only two routinely rolled out pairings last year) and were +5 (21-16) in their 5v5 minutes. Rielly-Brodie were also +5 (42-37).

But let's talk the real numbers that mean something to a defensive pairing (in my mind) which is actual goals against / 60. Of our pairings that played at least 164 minutes together, the results were:

Giordano - Liljegren in 208 minutes averaged 1.73 GA/60 (35)
McCabe - Benoit in 523 minutes averaged 1.84 GA/60 (45)
Brodie - Liljegren in 179 minutes averaged 2.02 GA/60 (56)
McCabe - Liljegren in 205 minutes averaged 2.34 GA/60 (91)
Rielly - Brodie in 790 minutes averaged 2.81 GA/60 (141)

You don't put McCabe - Benoit together with the hope of creating offense - but they were doing their job. In the entire NHL there were 202 pairings that played a minimum of 164 minutes together, and the number in parenthesis after each shows where they are in the ranking. Gio-Lilly was an over talented third pair who had good results.

Most of the pairings were above the "Mendoza" line here - but not the one that was deployed more than any other. In fact Rielly-Brodie was in the bottom quadrant. If Tanev and Rielly together can move that top line into the top quadrant at least - and the team can improve the PK, there is a big improvement in this entire team.

Preseason games. The perfect time to overreact!
- Scabeh

The only things worth measuring in pre-season ...especially in September ...are the fringe types. Guys battling for jobs. The Sens 4th line was great all night b/c they were battling for jobs. Patches has a good night b/c he's battling for a job.

Otherwise ..just shake off the rust.

I say it every year: this fanbase has perpetual PTSD that gets reactivated every season.
- mjones242

It's always sort of bizarre - I don't want to see my guys who are a lock to play regular season games going hard into the corners in a preseason game with some AHL kid looking to make a name for himself. Watching Marner or Nylander get knocked out of action for 25 regular season games because Doofus NoName decided to show the brass that he can from behind better than anyone else in the organization isn't what the preseason is for for these guys.

For regulars it's getting your timing back, getting some competition in, working on the things you worked on all summer - and so on. For the hopefuls - they are the ones who do have to shine. I won't lie - if you're on the bubble, you should have been keeping pace with Ottawa yesterday. If you failed at that task, you're honestly probably no longer on the bubble.

I do take that out of the preseason games - but I always say to people that they have to remember that the competition here is largely AHL and below and NHL players running at around 75% effort. Not to be an ass about it - but the line isn't that hard to rise above if you're a worthy NHL player. For instance I'd be pretty happy for Puljujarvi if he finally figured it out - but I have a pretty solid feeling these 6 preseason goals he's scored in 2 games are the highlight of his season.

I'm not sure how PTOs work, can another team look at what he's done and offer him a contract, or do the Leafs have dibs?
- Whipper

I think they probably have already agreed to a number.

Depending on who makes the team will likely decide his salary for the seaosn....while the rest will be some performance bonus.

750K+500K in performance bonuses.

Understanding that the goal is to get better than last year, not replicate it - last year Benoit, despite my personal misgivings which echoed yours, fared okay in a top-4 role with McCabe.

They played the 2nd most minutes of any defensive pairing on the team - often as the shutdown pairing - and owned 50.6% of the expected goals (not great, but Rielly-Brodie was 47.1% by comparison - and these were really the only two routinely rolled out pairings last year) and were +5 (21-16) in their 5v5 minutes. Rielly-Brodie were also +5 (42-37).

But let's talk the real numbers that mean something to a defensive pairing (in my mind) which is actual goals against / 60. Of our pairings that played at least 164 minutes together, the results were:

Giordano - Liljegren in 208 minutes averaged 1.73 GA/60 (35)
McCabe - Benoit in 523 minutes averaged 1.84 GA/60 (45)
Brodie - Liljegren in 179 minutes averaged 2.02 GA/60 (56)
McCabe - Liljegren in 205 minutes averaged 2.34 GA/60 (91)
Rielly - Brodie in 790 minutes averaged 2.81 GA/60 (141)

You don't put McCabe - Benoit together with the hope of creating offense - but they were doing their job. In the entire NHL there were 202 pairings that played a minimum of 164 minutes together, and the number in parenthesis after each shows where they are in the ranking. Gio-Lilly was an over talented third pair who had good results.

Most of the pairings were above the "Mendoza" line here - but not the one that was deployed more than any other. In fact Rielly-Brodie was in the bottom quadrant. If Tanev and Rielly together can move that top line into the top quadrant at least - and the team can improve the PK, there is a big improvement in this entire team.
- Monkeypunk

Thanks for the numbers to give context to my eyeball observations.

I like Benoit. He has that stiff backbone that this team needs. He's what, 26 or 27? So I think we know what we have with him. Those numbers don't actually look as bad as I thought they would. Again, deployment plays a role in this. I think those GA numbers say as much about McCabe as they do Benoit. As long as it works, keep doing it.

So, if we pair Benoit with McCabe, and Rielly with Tanev, that leaves a glut of 3rd pairing candidates? Who sits? Lily? OEL? Lily is getting paid far too much to be a 3rd pair guy with no speciality. They didn't bring OEL in just to sit him, so I figure he gets the nod.

Haaktuah and Timmins are in the wings.

I'm curious to see what Berube does here, because there is obviously still work to do.

It's always sort of bizarre - I don't want to see my guys who are a lock to play regular season games going hard into the corners in a preseason game with some AHL kid looking to make a name for himself. Watching Marner or Nylander get knocked out of action for 25 regular season games because Doofus NoName decided to show the brass that he can from behind better than anyone else in the organization isn't what the preseason is for for these guys.

For regulars it's getting your timing back, getting some competition in, working on the things you worked on all summer - and so on. For the hopefuls - they are the ones who do have to shine. I won't lie - if you're on the bubble, you should have been keeping pace with Ottawa yesterday. If you failed at that task, you're honestly probably no longer on the bubble.

I do take that out of the preseason games - but I always say to people that they have to remember that the competition here is largely AHL and below and NHL players running at around 75% effort. Not to be an ass about it - but the line isn't that hard to rise above if you're a worthy NHL player. For instance I'd be pretty happy for Puljujarvi if he finally figured it out - but I have a pretty solid feeling these 6 preseason goals he's scored in 2 games are the highlight of his season.
- Monkeypunk

Meh I think being up to speed and doing well in pre season means you are already in shape and at the top of your game, which doesnt matter for guys like AM and Willy but is vital for Pulujujarvi's and Pacioretty's.

Thanks for the numbers to give context to my eyeball observations.

I like Benoit. He has that stiff backbone that this team needs. He's what, 26 or 27? So I think we know what we have with him. Those numbers don't actually look as bad as I thought they would. Again, deployment plays a role in this. I think those GA numbers say as much about McCabe as they do Benoit. As long as it works, keep doing it.

So, if we pair Benoit with McCabe, and Rielly with Tanev, that leaves a glut of 3rd pairing candidates? Who sits? Lily? OEL? Lily is getting paid far too much to be a 3rd pair guy with no speciality. They didn't bring OEL in just to sit him, so I figure he gets the nod.

Haaktuah and Timmins are in the wings.

I'm curious to see what Berube does here, because there is obviously still work to do.
- GalacticStone

Yeah . . . You have the assume it's 5, 6 and 7 that are being battled for here - with odds on favourites being OEL (lock), Liljegren, Hakanpaa and Timmins.

Given what they bring to the table, relatively, and the cap requirements that we have - I would be actively seeking to trade Liljegren. He's not a $3m defensemen. As, I believe it was underhill, noted yesterday - he doesn't do anything well enough. He's mediocre at everything. He's not that fast, he doesn't have an above average shot, he's not strong, he's not position that well, he doesn't have a good stick - he is a pretty good passer. I can't see what Liljegren is bringing here that values him at $3m.

That said I do like Timmins more than I should.

I also think, for the record, that if he can perform, Hakanpaa, is probably on steady ground. They got him for a reason and pursued him for months.

Meh I think being up to speed and doing well in pre season means you are already in shape and at the top of your game, which doesnt matter for guys like AM and Willy but is vital for Pulujujarvi's and Pacioretty's.
- Santo_44

I think we're saying the same thing - but if you're a hopeful to make the NHL opening day lineup and you're on the bubble - I would 100% expect you to be at the top of your game now. You don't have the luxury of off days and tomorrow isn't guaranteed. Like a reality TV show - you're only as good as your latest performance. It may not have worked out for us, but is why we signed Gregor and ditched Lafferty.

Yeah . . . You have the assume it's 5, 6 and 7 that are being battled for here - with odds on favourites being OEL (lock), Liljegren, Hakanpaa and Timmins.

Given what they bring to the table, relatively, and the cap requirements that we have - I would be actively seeking to trade Liljegren. He's not a $3m defensemen. As, I believe it was underhill, noted yesterday - he doesn't do anything well enough. He's mediocre at everything. He's not that fast, he doesn't have an above average shot, he's not strong, he's not position that well, he doesn't have a good stick - he is a pretty good passer. I can't see what Liljegren is bringing here that values him at $3m.

That said I do like Timmins more than I should.

I also think, for the record, that if he can perform, Hakanpaa, is probably on steady ground. They got him for a reason and pursued him for months.
- Monkeypunk

I would trade Lily, even if I had to eat some salary to do it. Like you and Underhill said, he doesn't really do anything especially well for a guy making $3m. It would be different if he was a great penalty killer, had a booming shot, or literally anything. He's just meh, at best. That said, if the Leafs eat 50%, there are teams who would take him at $1.5m. You might not get much in return, but you lose some overpaid dead weight, and you can literally replace him in an instant with Haaktuah or Timmins. If you can get a mid-round pick for Lily retained, do it quick before the other GM sobers up.

Yeah . . . You have the assume it's 5, 6 and 7 that are being battled for here - with odds on favourites being OEL (lock), Liljegren, Hakanpaa and Timmins.

Given what they bring to the table, relatively, and the cap requirements that we have - I would be actively seeking to trade Liljegren. He's not a $3m defensemen. As, I believe it was underhill, noted yesterday - he doesn't do anything well enough. He's mediocre at everything. He's not that fast, he doesn't have an above average shot, he's not strong, he's not position that well, he doesn't have a good stick - he is a pretty good passer. I can't see what Liljegren is bringing here that values him at $3m.

That said I do like Timmins more than I should.

I also think, for the record, that if he can perform, Hakanpaa, is probably on steady ground. They got him for a reason and pursued him for months.
- Monkeypunk

Looking at the Cap sitch they've set it up so that they can include Lilly with 13F and 7D. I don't think that's a commitment to him but it gives them time to make sure the other guys are healthy and good and time to wait out a good trade.

Timmins would have to have one hell of a camp to upend the balance at this point.

I would trade Lily, even if I had to eat some salary to do it. Like you and Underhill said, he doesn't really do anything especially well for a guy making $3m. It would be different if he was a great penalty killer, had a booming shot, or literally anything. He's just meh, at best. That said, if the Leafs eat 50%, there are teams who would take him at $1.5m. You might not get much in return, but you lose some overpaid dead weight, and you can literally replace him in an instant with Haaktuah or Timmins. If you can get a mid-round pick for Lily retained, do it quick before the other GM sobers up.
- GalacticStone

If I knew how to post a "wtf" face to this post I totally would.

I'm not a big Lilly fan but trading him, eating salary, and getting nothing .....having just signed him a few weeks ago ....seems like an "interesting" thought.

25 yr old blueliner at $3M per ....20-30 teams would scoop him up if you put him on waivers today.

Looking at the Cap sitch they've set it up so that they can include Lilly with 13F and 7D. I don't think that's a commitment to him but it gives them time to make sure the other guys are healthy and good and time to wait out a good trade.

Timmins would have to have one hell of a camp to upend the balance at this point.
- The Law

If Pacioretty wins a job, then you probably are trading away Robertson or Holmberg (they play different roles, but they are the bubble forwards here) - and depending on what the expected contract is, it could affect that balance. The room they have right now says that if MaxPac earns a contract, it can't exceed $900k and Nick Robertson is gone - or $830k and Holmberg is.

Now do I think it should be Reaves on the Marlies? Yes. I 100% do. But I have no faith in the correct decision being made this time around either.

If Timmins were simply healthy and just played the way he does, I'd be moving Liljegren - but as I said above, I do like what Timmins offers more than most people.

In that mix . . . I don't know the extent of Lorentz's injury, but his size is something I'd bet both Treliving and Berube would want as a 4th line option. He isn't better than Kampf defensively - but he hits a lot of people and would be impactful on this team.

If I knew how to post a "wtf" face to this post I totally would.

I'm not a big Lilly fan but trading him, eating salary, and getting nothing .....having just signed him a few weeks ago ....seems like an "interesting" thought.

25 yr old blueliner at $3M per ....20-30 teams would scoop him up if you put him on waivers today.
- The Law

If Pacioretty wins a job, then you probably are trading away Robertson or Holmberg (they play different roles, but they are the bubble forwards here) - and depending on what the expected contract is, it could affect that balance. The room they have right now says that if MaxPac earns a contract, it can't exceed $900k and Nick Robertson is gone - or $830k and Holmberg is.

Now do I think it should be Reaves on the Marlies? Yes. I 100% do. But I have no faith in the correct decision being made this time around either.

If Timmins were simply healthy and just played the way he does, I'd be moving Liljegren - but as I said above, I do like what Timmins offers more than most people.

In that mix . . . I don't know the extent of Lorentz's injury, but his size is something I'd bet both Treliving and Berube would want as a 4th line option. He isn't better than Kampf defensively - but he hits a lot of people and would be impactful on this team.
- Monkeypunk

Pacs is great when healthy, that's the main issue, when healthy.

I fully expect him to get hit by a rain drop later on today and be out 3-4mths.

If Pacioretty wins a job, then you probably are trading away Robertson or Holmberg (they play different roles, but they are the bubble forwards here) - and depending on what the expected contract is, it could affect that balance. The room they have right now says that if MaxPac earns a contract, it can't exceed $900k and Nick Robertson is gone - or $830k and Holmberg is.

Now do I think it should be Reaves on the Marlies? Yes. I 100% do. But I have no faith in the correct decision being made this time around either.

If Timmins were simply healthy and just played the way he does, I'd be moving Liljegren - but as I said above, I do like what Timmins offers more than most people.

In that mix . . . I don't know the extent of Lorentz's injury, but his size is something I'd bet both Treliving and Berube would want as a 4th line option. He isn't better than Kampf defensively - but he hits a lot of people and would be impactful on this team.
- Monkeypunk

Lorentz is a guy they can sign and send down and go through waivers imo...but I also do not know the marlies situation I know they are only allowed to dress 5-6 vets a game.

I have said it before and l will say it again I think Robertson is moved before game 1, and I do think he has some value.

If I knew how to post a "wtf" face to this post I totally would.

I'm not a big Lilly fan but trading him, eating salary, and getting nothing .....having just signed him a few weeks ago ....seems like an "interesting" thought.

25 yr old blueliner at $3M per ....20-30 teams would scoop him up if you put him on waivers today.
- The Law

I get what you are saying and you are not wrong. The wrongness was in signing him for that. If he was making Timmins money, I'd feel differently. $3m is definitely overpaid for a non-specialist 3rd pairing guy. So, where do we shoehorn him in? What does a second pair with Lily look like?

It's always sort of bizarre - I don't want to see my guys who are a lock to play regular season games going hard into the corners in a preseason game with some AHL kid looking to make a name for himself. Watching Marner or Nylander get knocked out of action for 25 regular season games because Doofus NoName decided to show the brass that he can from behind better than anyone else in the organization isn't what the preseason is for for these guys.

For regulars it's getting your timing back, getting some competition in, working on the things you worked on all summer - and so on. For the hopefuls - they are the ones who do have to shine. I won't lie - if you're on the bubble, you should have been keeping pace with Ottawa yesterday. If you failed at that task, you're honestly probably no longer on the bubble.

I do take that out of the preseason games - but I always say to people that they have to remember that the competition here is largely AHL and below and NHL players running at around 75% effort. Not to be an ass about it - but the line isn't that hard to rise above if you're a worthy NHL player. For instance I'd be pretty happy for Puljujarvi if he finally figured it out - but I have a pretty solid feeling these 6 preseason goals he's scored in 2 games are the highlight of his season.
- Monkeypunk

My favourite part of pre-season games: the only reason Reaves dressed last night is so that some fringe goon on the Senators would have a guy to fight, in the hopes of impressing Sens brass.

Good lord, what a waste of time.

My favourite part of pre-season games: the only reason Reaves dressed last night is so that some fringe goon on the Senators would have a guy to fight, in the hopes of impressing Sens brass.

Good lord, what a waste of time.
- Atomic Wedgie

It's part of why I hate preseason games or the rookie tournament.

Every team has this bumhole goon that knows he has to fight or hurt someone to get noticed.

Sometimes the goons fight between themselves and it's "fine" but there's always the chance a talented player gets hurt for absolutely no reason. Which sucks.

One day they'll end up like the NFL and never dress the star players for these games.

My favourite part of pre-season games: the only reason Reaves dressed last night is so that some fringe goon on the Senators would have a guy to fight, in the hopes of impressing Sens brass.

Good lord, what a waste of time.
- Atomic Wedgie

It's that but also to make sure if some bubble pylon on the other team decides to try and impress by pasting a star player from the opposition into the boards from behind or something equally stupid they (hopefully / in theory) think twice before doing so.


Seems in this case the Sen player decided a bit of a hit from behind was cool - perhaps not realizing who it was? I don't think Reevo was planning on fighting him but the Sen player wanted it so he got it.

Not much of a fight really.

It's that but also to make sure if some bubble pylon on the other team decides to try and impress by pasting a star player from the opposition into the boards from behind or something equally stupid they (hopefully / in theory) think twice before doing so.


- Cush29

Do people really still believe this?

My favourite part of pre-season games: the only reason Reaves dressed last night is so that some fringe goon on the Senators would have a guy to fight, in the hopes of impressing Sens brass.

Good lord, what a waste of time.
- Atomic Wedgie

Not to be argumentative but Donovan Sebrango isn't a goon nor is he even much of a fighter. He hasn't developed how I'm sure he would have liked and is probably on his last legs here at making the club in the next two years - but he did represent Canada in the WJC.

The only reason that fight happened was that Sebrango made a poor decision and hit Reaves from behind and then he doubled down on his poor decision making by honouring the rung bell and got his bell rung (not really - he just had a stern talking to).

Realistically if Berube is serious about coaching this team his way he needs to see if Reaves has any hockey left in him. If he feels that the guy is a liability who can't contribute other than to trot out for ceremonial fights from time to time, then they should admit that to themselves and move on. But Reaves should be treating this preseason as yet another audition proving whether he belongs.

I would trade Lily, even if I had to eat some salary to do it. Like you and Underhill said, he doesn't really do anything especially well for a guy making $3m. It would be different if he was a great penalty killer, had a booming shot, or literally anything. He's just meh, at best. That said, if the Leafs eat 50%, there are teams who would take him at $1.5m. You might not get much in return, but you lose some overpaid dead weight, and you can literally replace him in an instant with Haaktuah or Timmins. If you can get a mid-round pick for Lily retained, do it quick before the other GM sobers up.
- GalacticStone

I dont think there should be a need for the leafs to any cap in a lili trade, IMO.
At $3m his cap hit isnt large enough to warrant keeping any cap....unless they want a higher pick.

Do people really still believe this?
- Atomic Wedgie

It's the NHL.....they (as in NHL coaches, management and players) all believe all kinds of stuff that hasn't been true or accurate for decades.

"Unwritten rules of the game" and "The Code" are still very much alive!

It's the NHL.....they (as in NHL coaches, management and players) all believe all kinds of stuff that hasn't been true or accurate for decades!

"Unwritten rules of the game" and "The Code" are still very much alive! lol
- Cush29

some of it is true though

Goalies are weird, they are voodoos