Gionta and his 28 goals in 61 games? Yeah, I'm fine with that.
Gionta > Kessel.
- hello_there

Awesome.

Wow this was incredibly bang on.
- prock

If I had a prop handy, I'd hand it to you.

Gionta IS better than Kessel. It doesn't mean that Kessel isn't any good (I can admit his talent even though he plays for Toronto), but Brian Gionta is presently a better hockey player than Phil Kessel.

You just have a hard time believing it because Gionta is a Hab and is the smallest player in the NHL.

- Discofunk

How do you feel about this now?

oday with toronto playing at a .688 points percentage, and Ottawa playing at .375 .....Toronto has been winning points at nearly double the rate.. ...

It is clear Toronto is in a better situation.
- prock

Both the Leafs and Senators are playing well above expectations. Things should level off for both teams and at that point it makes sense to look towards the future.

I think the Senators are much closer to being a Stanley Cup contender than what the Leafs are. I think the Leafs are a stronger contender than the Senators to make the playoffs this year. I would think that outcome will be flipped the following year.

Both the Leafs and Senators are playing well above expectations. Things should level off for both teams and at that point it makes sense to look towards the future.

I think the Senators are much closer to being a Stanley Cup contender than what the Leafs are. I think the Leafs are a stronger contender than the Senators to make the playoffs this year. I would think that outcome will be flipped the following year.
- spatso

Based on what? Not to many teams go from being atrocious to being a playoff team much like not many teams go from being a playoff team to be atrocious. Hell, you even thought that the Leafs would be worse than the Sens this year despite the fact that the Leafs were trending up and the Sens were trending down.

The Sens will be bad for a number of years while the Leafs will continue to improve (they have a young roster after all and are more cap flexible than a lot of teams). If, however, the Sens commit to a long term full tear down and rebuild from the ground up (which they are close to doing so far) and draft in the top five including a first overall or two then, in the long run, they will likely be in a better position than the Leafs.

As of right now the Leafs are a younger team with arguably better (or at least comparable) prospects and are doing better in the standings. There is no way an unbiased person would look at two organizations in these situations and say that the Sens are "closer to being a contender."

Based on what? Not to many teams go from being atrocious to being a playoff team much like not many teams go from being a playoff team to be atrocious. Hell, you even thought that the Leafs would be worse than the Sens this year despite the fact that the Leafs were trending up and the Sens were trending down.

The Sens will be bad for a number of years while the Leafs will continue to improve (they have a young roster after all and are more cap flexible than a lot of teams). If, however, the Sens commit to a long term full tear down and rebuild from the ground up (which they are close to doing so far) and draft in the top five including a first overall or two then, in the long run, they will likely be in a better position than the Leafs.

As of right now the Leafs are a younger team with arguably better (or at least comparable) prospects and are doing better in the standings. There is no way an unbiased person would look at two organizations in these situations and say that the Sens are "closer to being a contender."
- Leafy_84

Anybody who makes a serious study of prospects would not try to compare the quality and depth of Leaf prospects to what the Senators have gathered.

In terms of expectations the Senator faithful were hoping for a lottery pick. Their major problem was projected as a lack of scoring. As of this moment, they are not in the position of a lottery team, which could prove disappointing to many. Also they are scoring goals at a very good pace which is usually a very strong reflection of their potential. There goals against is the product of a very young defense and suspect goaltending. This is not a bad thing in terms of their long term goals.

Anybody who makes a serious study of prospects would not try to compare the quality and depth of Leaf prospects to what the Senators have gathered.

- spatso

Must be the same people who performed the study that determined that Erik Karlsson repeatedly stripped the puck from Ovechkin, time and time again, as he approached the blue line, and only allowed Ovechkin shots from the outside.

Must be the same people who performed the study that determined that Erik Karlsson repeatedly stripped the puck from Ovechkin, time and time again, as he approached the blue line, and only allowed Ovechkin shots from the outside.
- prock

I did not think you had seen the game but it is a fact.

I did not think you had seen the game but it is a fact.
- spatso

According to Sens fans, yes it is. According to the NHL, not so much.


I guess that will end up being the case with the Sens finishing ahead of the Leafs next year as well..... Maybe according to Sens fans, but according to the standings and stats the NHL publishes, not so much.

Based on what? Not to many teams go from being atrocious to being a playoff team much like not many teams go from being a playoff team to be atrocious. Hell, you even thought that the Leafs would be worse than the Sens this year despite the fact that the Leafs were trending up and the Sens were trending down.

The Sens will be bad for a number of years while the Leafs will continue to improve (they have a young roster after all and are more cap flexible than a lot of teams). If, however, the Sens commit to a long term full tear down and rebuild from the ground up (which they are close to doing so far) and draft in the top five including a first overall or two then, in the long run, they will likely be in a better position than the Leafs.

As of right now the Leafs are a younger team with arguably better (or at least comparable) prospects and are doing better in the standings. There is no way an unbiased person would look at two organizations in these situations and say that the Sens are "closer to being a contender."
- Leafy_84

LOL. It's true. However, the standings that the NHL publishes will be "incomplete", and for some reason miss a bunch of points for the Sens.

According to Sens fans, yes it is. According to the NHL, not so much.


I guess that will end up being the case with the Sens finishing ahead of the Leafs next year as well..... Maybe according to Sens fans, but according to the standings and stats the NHL publishes, not so much.
- prock

I am sort of caught in the middle here. On the one side you have Sen fans entirely content with the performance of their team wanting the team to obtain a lottery pick. On the other, you have Leaf fans who are hyped hoping their team will make the playoffs. There is an enormous difference between the two teams.

Leaf fans will be entirely content if the Leafs make the playoffs. Most will be content if they stay in contention and come close. Ottawa fans tend to have a been there done that attitude and they want to return to the status of an elite team and that is their game plan. It is hard to compare the two approaches at any level.

However, if the Leafs do not make the playoffs this year there is a very good chance that they will be overtaken and passed by the Senators in the following year. As you know I believe that the Senators will trade Spezza, Neil and several others and continue to stock up on elite prospects.

However, if the Leafs do not make the playoffs this year there is a very good chance that they will be overtaken and passed by the Senators in the following year.
- spatso

Of course they will. Except, the NHL will miss recording some of those wins and points, and you will say that the standings are incomplete.

Of course they will. Except, the NHL will miss recording some of those wins and points, and you will say that the standings are incomplete.
- prock

Now it just sounds like your being petulant. Healthy people disagree all the time without having to make it personal. It seems to me that you letting this stuff upset you. If you are not enjoying the discussion within the overall framework of courtesy and respect you might want to think about trying a different approach.

Now it just sounds like your being petulant. Healthy people disagree all the time without having to make it personal. It seems to me that you letting this stuff upset you. If you are not enjoying the discussion within the overall framework of courtesy and respect you might want to think about trying a different approach.
- spatso

I don't know what would give you the idea I'm upset. I'm just going by past experiences, where Sens fans don't agree with the NHL's interpretation of NHL games. I suspect the Sens finishing ahead of the Leafs next year will require a similar difference in interpretation between Sens fans and the NHL of silly things like standings and statistics.

I don't know what would give you the idea I'm upset. I'm just going by past experiences, where Sens fans don't agree with the NHL's interpretation of NHL games. I suspect the Sens finishing ahead of the Leafs next year will require a similar difference in interpretation between Sens fans and the NHL of silly things like standings and statistics.
- prock

You are getting yourself into that gray area again. I have honestly stated what I believe I saw. I quoted the games commentators who saw the same thing. Others have also confirmed my observation. It is fine for you to state you believe that I am wrong. Or, you can say that I have misinterpreted what actually happened. All that is fine. But, your current style contains an implicit assumption that I, and others, have purposely attempted to misrepresent our observations. When you do that, you expose yourself as being unattractively bitter and you should understand that it puts you at risk of being alienated from those of us who most appreciate the insightful commentary that you regularly provide. I think it would be wise for you to step back and think about the tone and temper of some of your implicit allegations contained in your posts.

Gionta > kessel

nuff said

You are getting yourself into that gray area again. I have honestly stated what I believe I saw. I quoted the games commentators who saw the same thing. Others have also confirmed my observation. It is fine for you to state you believe that I am wrong. Or, you can say that I have misinterpreted what actually happened. All that is fine. But, your current style contains an implicit assumption that I, and others, have purposely attempted to misrepresent our observations. When you do that, you expose yourself as being unattractively bitter and you should understand that it puts you at risk of being alienated from those of us who most appreciate the insightful commentary that you regularly provide. I think it would be wise for you to step back and think about the tone and temper of some of your implicit allegations contained in your posts.
- spatso

I am not sure what gray area you are talking about. I have merely pointed out that the NHL seems to interpret things differently than Sens fans. I have not said anything about you being wrong or right, or anything else you have babbled on about. I have merely pointed out that the NHL sees things differently sometimes, and that is the only scenario I can fathom the roster that the Sens have finishing ahead of the Leafs next year would actually happen. That's all. There is no temper whatsoever.

However, if the Leafs do not make the playoffs this year there is a very good chance that they will be overtaken and passed by the Senators in the following year. As you know I believe that the Senators will trade Spezza, Neil and several others and continue to stock up on elite prospects.
- spatso

How is there a "very good chance" of this happening? Hell, how is there even the "remote consideration" that this could happen. So the Leafs finish ahead of them last year and theoretically they finish ahead of them this year but then magically the Sens overtake them the following year?

This despite the fact that the Leafs are young, improving and have the majority of their core locked up and that the Sens are on the decline and will likely lose an aging Alfie to retirement?

You cannot say that any rational unbiased person would ever say that Team A would suddenly finish below Team B in the standings despite the details mentioned above. In any sport. Ever. Give your head a shake.

How is there a "very good chance" of this happening? Hell, how is there even the "remote consideration" that this could happen. So the Leafs finish ahead of them last year and theoretically they finish ahead of them this year but then magically the Sens overtake them the following year?

This despite the fact that the Leafs are young, improving and have the majority of their core locked up and that the Sens are on the decline and will likely lose an aging Alfie to retirement?

You cannot say that any rational unbiased person would ever say that Team A would suddenly finish below Team B in the standings despite the details mentioned above. In any sport. Ever. Give your head a shake.
- Leafy_84

In addition to this guy claiming that Spezza may be traded?

The likelihood is the Sens will spend a few years in the basement. Ironically, Sens fans have been telling us they'll finish low enough to get a couple of lottery picks, just like the Oilers, and they're rebuilding right, etc, etc, and yet, they follow that up with "but we'll pass you next year".

The reality is, the Sens roster is completely pitiful. It can take several years for a team to collect enough prospects just to pull out of the basement, and a couple after that for them to develop and pull the team into the playoffs. that's just how it goes.

It will likely take a disconnect from reality like I've outlined above, for this to occur.

How is there a "very good chance" of this happening? Hell, how is there even the "remote consideration" that this could happen. So the Leafs finish ahead of them last year and theoretically they finish ahead of them this year but then magically the Sens overtake them the following year?

This despite the fact that the Leafs are young, improving and have the majority of their core locked up and that the Sens are on the decline and will likely lose an aging Alfie to retirement?

You cannot say that any rational unbiased person would ever say that Team A would suddenly finish below Team B in the standings despite the details mentioned above. In any sport. Ever. Give your head a shake.
- Leafy_84

It is actually a good point of discussion. The Leafs are trying to be competitive. The Senators have clearly taken the approach of wanting to follow the more traditional route of rebuilding in hopes of acquiring elite talent.

Think of the rebuilding as being something like an iceberg, 10/11 of the mass is under water. The Senators have elite talent at all levels of their development system, they will likely add some very strong assets during the coming year. Teams that know what they are doing tend to rebuild in a dramatic way. We can see how Edmonton finished at the bottom last year and the difference at the start of this year. We can see the Islanders starting to come on and we already know about LA, Chicago and Vancouver. Even the Bruins and Flyers followed this route a few years ago These are all teams that took advantage of the draft to build superbly talented young teams. All of them also made some very effective trades but they had the assets acquired in the draft to allow them to do the deals.

If you remember this time last year as well as the year before I was cautioning Leaf fans about their dumping on the Oilers. Many of you were saying that the Oilers would never finish ahead of the Leafs. Well I fear that time has now arrived. You notice how Leaf fans seem to be avoiding talking about the Oilers this year.

In fact, what will probably happen is that Leaf fans will start to become more and more aware of the young Senator talent and they will make the same kind of shift as they did against the Oilers. They will probably find it more easy to make their comparisons against Montreal when the Canadiens begin their rebuild.

Nobody really thinks of the Leafs as a serious contender. This will become more apparant as they play against stronger teams and their overall weakness in the middle becomes clear to everyone. I think they will have a good season and finish 10th. It has been my prediction since the early summer. But, they will still have not made any progress towards becoming a serious contender. It is in that context that I believe that the Senators will improve significantly while the Leafs remain essentially a mediocre team. Regardless of where the Oilers finish in the standings you know they are a better team than the Leafs. They will play as serious Stanley Cup contenders in the near future, the Senators are following the same roadmap. The Leafs do not have a roadmap that would enable them to become an elite team.

It is actually a good point of discussion. The Leafs are trying to be competitive. The Senators have clearly taken the approach of wanting to follow the more traditional route of rebuilding in hopes of acquiring elite talent.

- spatso

But.... you think they'll pass the Leafs in a year anyway?

You seem to have serious issues with being completely disconnected from reality.

I am not sure what gray area you are talking about. I have merely pointed out that the NHL seems to interpret things differently than Sens fans. I have not said anything about you being wrong or right, or anything else you have babbled on about. I have merely pointed out that the NHL sees things differently sometimes, and that is the only scenario I can fathom the roster that the Sens have finishing ahead of the Leafs next year would actually happen. That's all. There is no temper whatsoever.
- prock

I have no difficulty with this statement. It is accurate and acceptable. But, it is clearly different from a statement that suggests that I have misrepresented something in a manner that was clearly intended to be deceptive or deceitful. As I have said to you before I have no difficulty being wrong. I frequently am as Mrs. Spatso is inclined to tell me everyday. But, it is not my nature to be deceptive or deceitful and you embark on shaky ground when you follow that path.

But.... you think they'll pass the Leafs in a year anyway?

You seem to have serious issues with being completely disconnected from reality.
- prock

Yes. I think the Oilers have clearly passed the Leafs regardless of the final point totals on the season. People can fight about the numbers and what they actually mean but those who revel in the skill and poetry of hockey understand that the Leafs are a long way removed from icing a team similar to the Edmonton kids.

Now it just sounds like your being petulant. Healthy people disagree all the time without having to make it personal. It seems to me that you letting this stuff upset you. If you are not enjoying the discussion within the overall framework of courtesy and respect you might want to think about trying a different approach.
- spatso

Dopplegagner wouldn't explain this to me. In your mind, is their such thing as an incorrect set of stats, or can there only be incomplete stats?

Or is it the case that if stats report less than they're actually is, then they are incomplete, but if they report more they are incorrect?

I want to use this final sentence to stress I'm not trying to goad or trap you, or call you an idiot. I'm just curious as to the distinction that dopple (and to some extent you) are making

Yes. I think the Oilers have clearly passed the Leafs regardless of the final point totals on the season. People can fight about the numbers and what they actually mean but those who revel in the skill and poetry of hockey understand that the Leafs are a long way removed from icing a team similar to the Edmonton kids.
- spatso

I wouldn't go that far. It's nice to see the kids coming along, but at the end of the day winning is winning. I'm pleased as punch by the way the season is going, but my perspective on whether they are better in the leafs will be based on performance. Points are a big aspect of that, as well as specific achievement vis a vis our perceived shortcomings (I.E. whether our D unit emerges to prove critics wrong, whether Dubnyk/Khabby show they can be a competitive tandem, whether our young forwards can play both offense and defense). Indeed, the big charge against our team has been team defense and goaltending. If we don't keep that up, and it doesn't to some extent show itself in the standings, I don't buy that the Oilers are better than the leafs YET.

Really, the biggest surprises so far hasn't been our kids. It's been our vets. Which is nice, because we were supposed to be a couple of no-brainer lottery picks surrounded by a bunch of AHL talent.