Spezza cannot contact teams asking if they're interested in him. WTF are you talking about?
- Schenn-Sational!

Clearly I'm mocking Spatso, becasue he ignores the fact that Spezza has a NTC and cannot be traded, unless he lifts it.

Hope that helps.

I didn't include him because he's not playing yet... but that was a good deal as well, we gave up negative value to get Franson and Lombardi(who is playing)

Of course the team won't immediately be better, but all these guys are proving their worth far more than what we gave up.
- Schenn-Sational!

This is really an important point. I like the Franson kid. But, if you remember back to when the Leafs did the deal for him I argued how many kids like this does one team need. Franson, Aulie, Gardiner etc, etc, it goes on and on. These are kids that other teams have decided to let go. And, soon as each one has come over there is a whole group who proclaim that it was a great deal by Blowhard. If Blowhard is so smart and everyone else is so stupid, why do we keep missing the playoffs? After being a below average team for most of the last decade and routinely missing the playoffs, why do the Leafs not have more homegrown elite players?

Ottawa cannot trade Spezza, only Jason Spezza can trade Spezza, and he has not contacted any teams looking for a trade. Instead he's put down roots in Ottawa, started his family here, and is probably in line for the Captaincy once Alfredsson moves on.

Ottawa bottomed out last season, moved veterans for picks at the drafts, kept those in fold that are part of the solution going forward, hired a new coach and staff, brought up a number of players from their Calder Cup winning team to the big leagues and signing them to one way contracts.

Doing another step back, as you seem to be suggesting, at next years trade deadline would not improve the re-building process, but in fact set it back. Why would any GM want to do that?
- Doppleganger

I believe that once the season settles down and Ottawa sets sight on a lottery pick the acceptance of the idea of dealing Spezza will become popular with an increasing number of Senator fans.

And when you see things different than everyone else, you should not tell people that they have not examined it clearly. Perhaps they ALL have, and think you're wrong. Perhaps they have good reason to believe so. perhaps it is actually you that has gotten way too much koolaid into themselves.
- prock

I think you forget the foundation for the entire ongoing debate.

It is for the very reason that you state, most Leaf fans want to believe that I am wrong. Most do not want to hear that the Leafs keep making the same mistakes over and over again. How many draft picks can we deal away? How many trades can we do for players who were not able to break into the line-up of other teams? How many years can we act like the New York Rangers before we become the New York Rangers. The only thing going for the Rangers is that they squeeze into the playoffs every once in awhile.

I think you can see a highly subjective interpretation of events that results in statistics having a very different look from one team to the next. Hits (body checks) would be an example of a hockey event that is subject to a very broad range of interpretation. Sometimes you will see a guy playing on the road have some really effective hits that are not counted. On the other hand, a home team player gets a high count for a series of soft hits. It is about the way the statistical guy sees the game. He understands how the home team guy makes his hits. He sees them every home game. He is simply not as familiar with the road guy and because hockey is such a fast game he misses what he not familiar with. Remember he does not have the benefit of instant replay to watch every event as they occur. What will make the distortion even more noticeable is if you are watching the broadcast by the visiting broadcasters. They know the pattern of their team players and they call the hits made by the visiting team even thought the scorer misses them. Of course, the visiting broadcasters miss calling some of the hits made by the home team. I think giveaways and takeaways and some other subjective calls may likely experience a similar kind of distortion based on nothing other than the antecedent anticipation of outcomes.
- spatso

Sure. My issue is that there is some nebulous distinction being made between incorrect stats and incomplete stats. It seems as though you and Dopple are reluctant to say the stats are incorrect, that they are merely incomplete, but it seems in this understanding there would be no such thing as incorrect stats. Honestly, if stats that egregiously mis-represent what happened in the game aren't "incorrect" but merely "incomplete", than it seems like stats can never be incorrect.

Do you see why this is an odd way of looking at things?

Clearly I'm mocking Spatso, becasue he ignores the fact that Spezza has a NTC and cannot be traded, unless he lifts it.

Hope that helps.
- Doppleganger

and who says he won't?

I believe that once the season settles down and Ottawa sets sight on a lottery pick the acceptance of the idea of dealing Spezza will become popular with an increasing number of Senator fans.
- spatso

No matter how you foresee the Future, Spezza is not going anywhere until he wants to.

I doubt that the majority of Senator want the team to "do poorly" for the sole purpose of having a high draft pick. No fan hopes his or her team does poorly. Ottawa has enough young players on the team, in the AHL and in Junior and Europe, there is no logical reason to "do poorly" for one more high pick.

I watched last nights game, and even though it does not show up in the Stats, watched improved play by Greening, Condra and Rundblad. This team is moving forward and there is no logical reason to follow your line of reasoning.

Ottawa is currently sitting 23rd overall (PP%) much better than what the pundits foretasted. The team is getting it's act together learning a new system and in facts leads the NHL with the best PP at 31.2%, and hopefully this is a sign of things to come.

This is really an important point. I like the Franson kid. But, if you remember back to when the Leafs did the deal for him I argued how many kids like this does one team need. Franson, Aulie, Gardiner etc, etc, it goes on and on. These are kids that other teams have decided to let go. And, soon as each one has come over there is a whole group who proclaim that it was a great deal by Blowhard. If Blowhard is so smart and everyone else is so stupid, why do we keep missing the playoffs? After being a below average team for most of the last decade and routinely missing the playoffs, why do the Leafs not have more homegrown elite players?
- spatso

These are all guys who were highly rated before coming to the Leafs, and only started drawing criticism once they came here.

Gardiner was only behind Fowler in terms of prospects, Aulie was only behind Erixsson, and was considered almost untouchable by many Flames fans after his world junior play, and Franson was a regular on Nashville, a team that has one of the deepest d-corps in the league... and was also considered a top prospect.

good on you to ignore Phaneuf and Colborne, as they hurt your point

These are all guys who were highly rated before coming to the Leafs, and only started drawing criticism once they came here.

Gardiner was only behind Fowler in terms of prospects, Aulie was only behind Erixsson, and was considered almost untouchable by many Flames fans after his world junior play, and Franson was a regular on Nashville, a team that has one of the deepest d-corps in the league... and was also considered a top prospect.

good on you to ignore Phaneuf and Colborne, as they hurt your point
- Schenn-Sational!

He also ignores the fact that there are teams with comparable young assets like the Oilers who would definitely swing a deal to acquire Aulie, Franson or Gardiner. Just because one team has an "overload" of young PMDs doesn't mean every team does.

Sure. My issue is that there is some nebulous distinction being made between incorrect stats and incomplete stats. It seems as though you and Dopple are reluctant to say the stats are incorrect, that they are merely incomplete, but it seems in this understanding there would be no such thing as incorrect stats. Honestly, if stats that egregiously mis-represent what happened in the game aren't "incorrect" but merely "incomplete", than it seems like stats can never be incorrect.

Do you see why this is an odd way of looking at things?
- Morris

I think it is essentially a baseball problem. Baseball and statistics were made for each other. The play is constantly stopped, between pitches, hits, outs, innings. It is a series of stoppages with intermittent action. If you go to a baseball game it is amazing to see the number of fans who score the game.

Hockey is very different. It is very fast flowing with few stoppages and keeping statistics is very difficult. Imagine how other fans would react if we were to show up at a hockey game intending to keep a score sheet. But, hockey is played in north America and the Americans love the statistics and it has now become part of the game.

My favorite stat is giveaways because it was introduced as a negative but always causes a problem when people see Gretsky or Crosby near the top of the list. So, in terms of your question I would think that giveaways is a good example of a statistic that can be correct but misleading. Or, perhaps, rather than misleading which should say meaningless.

No matter how you foresee the Future, Spezza is not going anywhere until he wants to.

I doubt that the majority of Senator want the team to "do poorly" for the sole purpose of having a high draft pick. No fan hopes his or her team does poorly. Ottawa has enough young players on the team, in the AHL and in Junior and Europe, there is no logical reason to "do poorly" for one more high pick.

I watched last nights game, and even though it does not show up in the Stats, watched improved play by Greening, Condra and Rundblad. This team is moving forward and there is no logical reason to follow your line of reasoning.

Ottawa is currently sitting 23rd overall (PP%) much better than what the pundits foretasted. The team is getting it's act together learning a new system and in facts leads the NHL with the best PP at 31.2%, and hopefully this is a sign of things to come.
- Doppleganger

I am sorry but I need to be consistent. I have argued for a long time that teams need to build through the draft and that there is a cycle of renewal. Smart teams figure out how to hit that seam. A bunch of teams just ignore the need to rebuild and they just get worse and worse. I believe the long term interests of the Senators would be better served if they dealt Spezza. This is not intended as a statement against Spezza, I think he is a great player. But, he would bring a great return and accelerate the rebuild of the Senators.

These are all guys who were highly rated before coming to the Leafs, and only started drawing criticism once they came here.

Gardiner was only behind Fowler in terms of prospects, Aulie was only behind Erixsson, and was considered almost untouchable by many Flames fans after his world junior play, and Franson was a regular on Nashville, a team that has one of the deepest d-corps in the league... and was also considered a top prospect.

good on you to ignore Phaneuf and Colborne, as they hurt your point
- Schenn-Sational!

I was not ignoring the other players I was just using the players who fell into a similar position, age and story profile. All of them are fine in their own right. But you are repeating the point that I am making. What is the purpose of loading up on the guys who cannot make their original teams?

I was not ignoring the other players I was just using the players who fell into a similar position, age and story profile. All of them are fine in their own right. But you are repeating the point that I am making. What is the purpose of loading up on the guys who cannot make their original teams?
- spatso

Like Rundblad? Filatov?

I am sorry but I need to be consistent. I have argued for a long time that teams need to build through the draft and that there is a cycle of renewal. Smart teams figure out how to hit that seam. A bunch of teams just ignore the need to rebuild and they just get worse and worse. I believe the long term interests of the Senators would be better served if they dealt Spezza. This is not intended as a statement against Spezza, I think he is a great player. But, he would bring a great return and accelerate the rebuild of the Senators.
- spatso

you need to elaborate on this point, because a Team like Detroit has been good for 20 years and never has a high draft pick but Columbus does and is never any good. Which is better?

Exactly! Would the Senators have not been in better shape long term if they had taken Tarasenko? Filatov is a bit of a different twist. I have no idea why Columbus would offer him up for a 3rd pick. Given the fact that the Senators had so many early round picks it was probably a no brainer and he has looked pretty good so far. But it is not the kind of deal that makes a lot of sense. Teams should avoid trying to take on other teams problems.

you need to elaborate on this point, because a Team like Detroit has been good for 20 years and never has a high draft pick but Columbus does and is never any good. Which is better?
- senstroll

I think we have talked about Detroit a lot. They are the exception that proves the rule. Boston is also another team that has done well by developing draft picks taken in later rounds.

I think we have talked about Detroit a lot. They are the exception that proves the rule. Boston is also another team that has done well by developing draft picks taken in later rounds.
- spatso

So not so much drafting but developing, excellent. Players taken in the 2nd round on are a crap shoot, but if brought along properly have a better chance at succeeding. Not rushing Kadri, Colborne etc is a wise move. gotcha

So not so much drafting but developing, excellent. Players taken in the 2nd round on are a crap shoot, but if brought along properly have a better chance at succeeding. Not rushing Kadri, Colborne etc is a wise move. gotcha
- senstroll

Kadri is a work in progress. Colborne is a good example of a team deciding to let him go. Boston is very good at developing their prospects. When they move prospects taken lower in the draft ahead of Colborne it should mean something. The same with Franson, Gardiner and Aulie. When teams let prospects go it means something. Don't want to knock any of the kids. But you need to know that their original teams found something missing in their games. All of them could be good NHL players one day, My problem is when the kool-aid drinkers insist that Blowhard has hit a home run and he stole these superior talents from unsuspecting GMs of the other teams. I don't believe the other guys are so dumb and, I certainly don't think Blowhard is that smart.

Kadri is a work in progress. Colborne is a good example of a team deciding to let him go. Boston is very good at developing their prospects. When they move prospects taken lower in the draft ahead of Colborne it should mean something. The same with Franson, Gardiner and Aulie. When teams let prospects go it means something. Don't want to knock any of the kids. But you need to know that their original teams found something missing in their games. All of them could be good NHL players one day, My problem is when the kool-aid drinkers insist that Blowhard has hit a home run and he stole these superior talents from unsuspecting GMs of the other teams. I don't believe the other guys are so dumb and, I certainly don't think Blowhard is that smart.
- spatso

It means that the team that let them go didn't see a place for them.

By no means does it mean that no other team could have more success with them.

i.e. see Grabner.

Also, Gardiner and Colborne were acquired in trade for another player.

Normally your logic applies to people that were traded for another draft pick. Reason being is that trading a prospect (a former draft pick) for a draft pick means you want another shot at picking the player you were expecting. I.e. just as columbus did with Filatov.

They need to rebuild that entire defense.

Colorado has rebuilt much better.
- RogerRoeper

Oilers currently have the lowest goals against per game in the NHL right now.

Toronto is 2nd worst.

Colorado in the bottom half of the league too.


Maybe the oilers might have a few more pieces on the back end than people give them credit for? Also, this was with a missing/injured Whitney.

I am not saying they will necessarily keep those kind of #'s up or anything but it's ironic that half the people on this site say that the Oilers have no D or goaltending yet Khabby has some of the best goalie numbers so far and has been lights out, Dubi has been good too and our so called AHL "D" core is keeping the puck out better than 29 other teams.

I think Tambs did the smart thing in taking his time with the D. We may have a few hidden gems back there let's see what we have before reworking the backend. But yes, it does need some reworking that's for sure but not necessarily a total overhaul like many people believe.

Oilers currently have the lowest goals against per game in the NHL right now.

Toronto is 2nd worst.

Colorado in the bottom half of the league too.


Maybe the oilers might have a few more pieces on the back end than people give them credit for? Also, this was with a missing/injured Whitney.

I am not saying they will necessarily keep those kind of #'s up or anything but it's ironic that half the people on this site say that the Oilers have no D or goaltending yet Khabby has some of the best goalie numbers so far and has been lights out, Dubi has been good too and our so called AHL "D" core is keeping the puck out better than 29 other teams.

I think Tambs did the smart thing in taking his time with the D. We may have a few hidden gems back there let's see what we have before reworking the backend. But yes, it does need some reworking that's for sure but not necessarily a total overhaul like many people believe.
- gretzky

Interesting. Edmonton's offense is putting the puck in the net at a lower rate than every other team in the league.

They must be crap.

Oilers currently have the lowest goals against per game in the NHL right now.

Toronto is 2nd worst.

Colorado in the bottom half of the league too.


Maybe the oilers might have a few more pieces on the back end than people give them credit for? Also, this was with a missing/injured Whitney.

I am not saying they will necessarily keep those kind of #'s up or anything but it's ironic that half the people on this site say that the Oilers have no D or goaltending yet Khabby has some of the best goalie numbers so far and has been lights out, Dubi has been good too and our so called AHL "D" core is keeping the puck out better than 29 other teams.

I think Tambs did the smart thing in taking his time with the D. We may have a few hidden gems back there let's see what we have before reworking the backend. But yes, it does need some reworking that's for sure but not necessarily a total overhaul like many people believe.
- gretzky

I will say that I didnt expect EDMs D to play well at any point in the year, I was wrong.

However, to try and start an I told you so, or wow were you all wrong, comment this early doesn't make a lot of sense. In all likelyhood EDMs D will falter this year, just as Colorado will drop to the middle of the pack or lower in the West, and the Leafs will not be leading the division.

Give it time. 20 games in if it is still the same, I will even start backing EDMs d corps

I will say that I didnt expect EDMs D to play well at any point in the year, I was wrong.

However, to try and start an I told you so, or wow were you all wrong, comment this early doesn't make a lot of sense. In all likelyhood EDMs D will falter this year, just as Colorado will drop to the middle of the pack or lower in the West, and the Leafs will not be leading the division.

Give it time. 20 games in if it is still the same, I will even start backing EDMs d corps
- mfreedman

Well said, the leopard will show his spots!

But I did watch the first two periods of Edmonton and Vancouver last night. The Oilers are going to be a very exciting team. They are an elite Dman away from being a very good team with enormous upside over the next two to three years. Love what they have done and how they went about doing it.

I will say that I didnt expect EDMs D to play well at any point in the year, I was wrong.

However, to try and start an I told you so, or wow were you all wrong, comment this early doesn't make a lot of sense. In all likelyhood EDMs D will falter this year, just as Colorado will drop to the middle of the pack or lower in the West, and the Leafs will not be leading the division.

Give it time. 20 games in if it is still the same, I will even start backing EDMs d corps
- mfreedman

Woah, I never said "told you so" or "wow were you wrong" I was merely pointing out that while we need work, it might not be a total overhaul as some seem to feel we need.

Also, I had to get those stats in before we play Washington tomorrow..

Interesting. Edmonton's offense is putting the puck in the net at a lower rate than every other team in the league.

They must be crap.
- prock

Can you imagine when the offense starts clicking?