The NHL is littered with players what were traded before their potential was realized contradicting spatso's theory. Naslund comes to mind, John Leclair etc, it was because other factors like you mention
- senstroll

I apologize for not commenting on some of the earlier comments, they were all very good and I enjoyed reading them. Some do make very good sense and are effective in diluting the strength of some of my arguments.

The problem is that they do not advance any ideas that would merit consideration in relation to my major concern. As I have repeatedly said I have no problems with any of the kids or with Steckle, Connolly and Lomabardy and I certainly have no problem with Kessel. Most of you know that I have always said about Kessel is that I like the player but hate the deal in terms of what it cost to acquire him.

Everything that Burke is doing reminds me of Sather in his early days with the Rangers. He did deal after deal for no other reason than because he could. And, every time he does a deal the kool aid brigade wants to arrange a parade so that we can celebrate Blowhard having stolen another player from all those really dumb GMs like Chiarelli, Poile, Murray and Lamarello. Come on guys give me a break. These other guys also know what they are doing. So, we end up all summer having to listen to the hype about Aulie and Franson only discover that they are being used on the margins. Does nobody have even the slightest touch of embarressment for all the over the top apologists who are constantly at the ready to try and justify each and every new ball that Blowhard throws in the air as part of his celebrity juggling act.

Look at the point total from the last season that JFJ was in charge. Has Burke/Wilson been able to improve upon the team that JFJ put on the ice. I don't know the answer but I suspect that it has been all downhill since Blowhard came on the scene. Will anybody sign on and support my concerns if this year's version of the Leafs fail to match the point total of JFJ's last year.

The NHL is littered with players what were traded before their potential was realized contradicting spatso's theory. Naslund comes to mind, John Leclair etc, it was because other factors like you mention
- senstroll

Iginla...Bertuzzi...Spezza...Sharp...etc.

Iginla...Bertuzzi...Spezza...Sharp...etc.
- p_zub

spezza has never been traded. just the pick to select him was.

spezza has never been traded. just the pick to select him was.
- sens rock

clearly Milbury saw something wrong with him, and didn't want to draft him.

I apologize for not commenting on some of the earlier comments, they were all very good and I enjoyed reading them. Some do make very good sense and are effective in diluting the strength of some of my arguments.

The problem is that they do not advance any ideas that would merit consideration in relation to my major concern. As I have repeatedly said I have no problems with any of the kids or with Steckle, Connolly and Lomabardy and I certainly have no problem with Kessel. Most of you know that I have always said about Kessel is that I like the player but hate the deal in terms of what it cost to acquire him.

Everything that Burke is doing reminds me of Sather in his early days with the Rangers. He did deal after deal for no other reason than because he could. And, every time he does a deal the kool aid brigade wants to arrange a parade so that we can celebrate Blowhard having stolen another player from all those really dumb GMs like Chiarelli, Poile, Murray and Lamarello. Come on guys give me a break. These other guys also know what they are doing. So, we end up all summer having to listen to the hype about Aulie and Franson only discover that they are being used on the margins. Does nobody have even the slightest touch of embarressment for all the over the top apologists who are constantly at the ready to try and justify each and every new ball that Blowhard throws in the air as part of his celebrity juggling act.

Look at the point total from the last season that JFJ was in charge. Has Burke/Wilson been able to improve upon the team that JFJ put on the ice. I don't know the answer but I suspect that it has been all downhill since Blowhard came on the scene. Will anybody sign on and support my concerns if this year's version of the Leafs fail to match the point total of JFJ's last year.
- spatso

I criticized the Kessel as soon as I heard it, I was in full rebuild mode at that point and hated what he gave up. I am ready to do the same for any deal if I feel it was a bad trade for the leafs, but anything he has done since I have been fine with, you just cant let your hate for BB and the Kessel trade go and see what the trades since have actually been (good for the leafs future)

Burke could have easily matched or came close to the point totals that JFJ did as GM (which was still not enough) if he had handed out the same stupid contracts and traded more picks for aged talent like JFJ did.

spezza has never been traded. just the pick to select him was.
- sens rock

This is true, but since it was on draft day, the Islanders already had their draft postion, and Ilya Kovalchuk was in the draft, there is no question they knew they were trading Spezza by giving up the second overall pick.

I apologize for not commenting on some of the earlier comments, they were all very good and I enjoyed reading them. Some do make very good sense and are effective in diluting the strength of some of my arguments.

The problem is that they do not advance any ideas that would merit consideration in relation to my major concern. As I have repeatedly said I have no problems with any of the kids or with Steckle, Connolly and Lomabardy and I certainly have no problem with Kessel. Most of you know that I have always said about Kessel is that I like the player but hate the deal in terms of what it cost to acquire him.

Everything that Burke is doing reminds me of Sather in his early days with the Rangers. He did deal after deal for no other reason than because he could. And, every time he does a deal the kool aid brigade wants to arrange a parade so that we can celebrate Blowhard having stolen another player from all those really dumb GMs like Chiarelli, Poile, Murray and Lamarello. Come on guys give me a break. These other guys also know what they are doing. So, we end up all summer having to listen to the hype about Aulie and Franson only discover that they are being used on the margins. Does nobody have even the slightest touch of embarressment for all the over the top apologists who are constantly at the ready to try and justify each and every new ball that Blowhard throws in the air as part of his celebrity juggling act.

Look at the point total from the last season that JFJ was in charge. Has Burke/Wilson been able to improve upon the team that JFJ put on the ice. I don't know the answer but I suspect that it has been all downhill since Blowhard came on the scene. Will anybody sign on and support my concerns if this year's version of the Leafs fail to match the point total of JFJ's last year.
- spatso

Burke can make a trade that improves his team - indeed he can objectively "win" a trade - without me thinking the other GM is a moron. It's only a slim percentage of fans from any team that honestly thinks that Burke outsmarted other GMS. just like it's a conspiracy theory that Murray tricked Burke into taking Kadri.

These are the stats from JFJ's last year:
Division 5th Northeast
Conference 12th Eastern
2007–08 record 36–35–11
Home record 18–17–6
Road record 18–18–5
Goals for 231
Goals against 260

Here are the stats from last year:
Division 4th Northeast
Conference 10th Eastern
2010–11 record 37–34–11
Home record 18–15–8
Road record 19–19–3
Goals for 218
Goals against 251

Really almost identical, but this is a much younger leafs team with more room to grow and a much improved prospect pool. Did Brian Burke maximally improve the prospect pool? No, but he did a decent job.

Quick vote among leaf fans: Who actually thinks Brian Burke is the best GM in the league?

Who merely thinks he's doing a satisfactory job?
I'll bet more people fall in the latter category than the former.

Burke can make a trade that improves his team - indeed he can objectively "win" a trade - without me thinking the other GM is a moron. It's only a slim percentage of fans from any team that honestly thinks that Burke outsmarted other GMS. just like it's a conspiracy theory that Murray tricked Burke into taking Kadri.

These are the stats from JFJ's last year:
Division 5th Northeast
Conference 12th Eastern
2007–08 record 36–35–11
Home record 18–17–6
Road record 18–18–5
Goals for 231
Goals against 260

Here are the stats from last year:
Division 4th Northeast
Conference 10th Eastern
2010–11 record 37–34–11
Home record 18–15–8
Road record 19–19–3
Goals for 218
Goals against 251

Really almost identical, but this is a much younger leafs team with more room to grow and a much improved prospect pool. Did Brian Burke maximally improve the prospect pool? No, but he did a decent job.

Quick vote among leaf fans: Who actually thinks Brian Burke is the best GM in the league?

Who merely thinks he's doing a satisfactory job?
I'll bet more people fall in the latter category than the former.
- Morris

I'd fall somewhere in between.

I think he's done more than a satisfactory job, and I think he's one of the best at making trades, but I question some draft choices, I'm not a fan of his coaching choice at all, and his signings have been mediocre at best.

I'd fall somewhere in between.

I think he's done more than a satisfactory job, and I think he's one of the best at making trades, but I question some draft choices, I'm not a fan of his coaching choice at all, and his signings have been mediocre at best.
- Schenn-Sational!

I would be about the same.

hes done a fine job, could someone have done better? probably, were they available, probably not

I'd fall somewhere in between.

I think he's done more than a satisfactory job, and I think he's one of the best at making trades, but I question some draft choices, I'm not a fan of his coaching choice at all, and his signings have been mediocre at best.
- Schenn-Sational!

This

Burke can make a trade that improves his team - indeed he can objectively "win" a trade - without me thinking the other GM is a moron. It's only a slim percentage of fans from any team that honestly thinks that Burke outsmarted other GMS. just like it's a conspiracy theory that Murray tricked Burke into taking Kadri.

These are the stats from JFJ's last year:
Division 5th Northeast
Conference 12th Eastern
2007–08 record 36–35–11
Home record 18–17–6
Road record 18–18–5
Goals for 231
Goals against 260

Here are the stats from last year:
Division 4th Northeast
Conference 10th Eastern
2010–11 record 37–34–11
Home record 18–15–8
Road record 19–19–3
Goals for 218
Goals against 251

Really almost identical, but this is a much younger leafs team with more room to grow and a much improved prospect pool. Did Brian Burke maximally improve the prospect pool? No, but he did a decent job.

Quick vote among leaf fans: Who actually thinks Brian Burke is the best GM in the league?

Who merely thinks he's doing a satisfactory job?
I'll bet more people fall in the latter category than the former.
- Morris

Hard to argue he's not doing a good job. He's taken an old, veteran, big contract laden team that was going absolutely nowhere, with no farm, to a young, decent team, that is improving, with a pretty good farm system, in a pretty short time. Most Leaf fans are pretty happy with what he's done, and the majority of his moves. All but a few will agree the Kessel deal was a bad move.

But the best GM in the league? No, no, NO. Poile, Holland, LouLam.....

Burke can make a trade that improves his team - indeed he can objectively "win" a trade - without me thinking the other GM is a moron. It's only a slim percentage of fans from any team that honestly thinks that Burke outsmarted other GMS. just like it's a conspiracy theory that Murray tricked Burke into taking Kadri.

These are the stats from JFJ's last year:
Division 5th Northeast
Conference 12th Eastern
2007–08 record 36–35–11
Home record 18–17–6
Road record 18–18–5
Goals for 231
Goals against 260

Here are the stats from last year:
Division 4th Northeast
Conference 10th Eastern
2010–11 record 37–34–11
Home record 18–15–8
Road record 19–19–3
Goals for 218
Goals against 251

Really almost identical, but this is a much younger leafs team with more room to grow and a much improved prospect pool. Did Brian Burke maximally improve the prospect pool? No, but he did a decent job.

Quick vote among leaf fans: Who actually thinks Brian Burke is the best GM in the league?

Who merely thinks he's doing a satisfactory job?
I'll bet more people fall in the latter category than the former.
- Morris

Outstanding response.

I clearly am biased and do not like Burke. It would less than the truth if I did not admit that I listen to every statement he makes prepared to jump any distortions that I perceive. Then I boil with fury as I read the kool aid drinkers rush in to pronounce another brilliant ruse by our fearless leader. As you know I think he is a con and he speaks with great blunderbust but seldom really achieves much.

I do not believe this team is any better than the team of last year. We will see. At some point in time it either has to improve or people need to begin to ask themselves about the root cause of the problem. If you are telling me that there are many other doubters out there than I am encouraged.

What I'm getting here is that you guys aren't a patrol of kool aid drinkers that think that Burke can do no wrong, but rather a cautiously optimistic group that all pretty much disagreed with the Kessel trade but like some of the other moves he's made?

by contrast, spatso is aggressively pessimistic, disagreed with the Kessel trade but likes some of the other moves Burke has made.

It seems to me the main difference is how strongly spatso responds to this possibly non-existent-on-hockeybuzz patrol of kool aid drinkers. You guys seem to be on the same page about every issue except what page you're on.

So what you're trying to say is that you guys aren't a patrol of kool aid drinkers that think that Burke can do no wrong, but rather a cautiously optimistic group that all pretty much disagreed with the Kessel trade but like some of the other moves he's made?

by contrast, spatso is aggressively pessimistic, disagreed with the Kessel trade but likes some of the other moves Burke has made.

It seems to me the main difference is how strongly spatso responds to this possibly non-existent on hockeybuzz patrol of kool aid drinkers. You guys seem to be on the same page about every issue except what page you're on.
- Morris

LOL. Nice.

Yeah. He's made a LOT of moves. He's an aggressive GM. He makes lots of moves, and he's not afraid to pull the trigger on big ones either. I'd say he's won more moves than he's lost. He's lost on his biggest move, but not nearly as bad as some try to make out, and over time, that will become a little more clear. Overall, I think the team is in a better place, by a wide margin, than it was when he took over. And he hasn't had long to do it either.

What I'm getting here is that you guys aren't a patrol of kool aid drinkers that think that Burke can do no wrong, but rather a cautiously optimistic group that all pretty much disagreed with the Kessel trade but like some of the other moves he's made?

by contrast, spatso is aggressively pessimistic, disagreed with the Kessel trade but likes some of the other moves Burke has made.

It seems to me the main difference is how strongly spatso responds to this possibly non-existent-on-hockeybuzz patrol of kool aid drinkers. You guys seem to be on the same page about every issue except what page you're on.
- Morris

well put

What I'm getting here is that you guys aren't a patrol of kool aid drinkers that think that Burke can do no wrong, but rather a cautiously optimistic group that all pretty much disagreed with the Kessel trade but like some of the other moves he's made?

by contrast, spatso is aggressively pessimistic, disagreed with the Kessel trade but likes some of the other moves Burke has made.

It seems to me the main difference is how strongly spatso responds to this possibly non-existent-on-hockeybuzz patrol of kool aid drinkers. You guys seem to be on the same page about every issue except what page you're on.
- Morris

How did you come to this conclusion?

How did you come to this conclusion?
- Schenn-Sational!

True.... He pretty much rips everything Burke does, no matter how good it is.

Lebda and Slaney for Lombardi and Franson..... How on earth do you criticize THAT?????

What I'm getting here is that you guys aren't a patrol of kool aid drinkers that think that Burke can do no wrong, but rather a cautiously optimistic group that all pretty much disagreed with the Kessel trade but like some of the other moves he's made?

by contrast, spatso is aggressively pessimistic, disagreed with the Kessel trade but likes some of the other moves Burke has made.

It seems to me the main difference is how strongly spatso responds to this possibly non-existent-on-hockeybuzz patrol of kool aid drinkers. You guys seem to be on the same page about every issue except what page you're on.
- Morris

Nice review. I do have a few quibbles.

I could be convinced to like most of the deals that Burke has done, except for the Kessel deal. My objection has never been the deals specifically. Rather, it is the duplication of deals and the stockpiling of over age prospects. It is possible that some of these guys could be late bloomers and they will come around. I am inclined to believe they are just guessing and hoping something works out for them.

The other quibble that I have may be more problematic. If we could go back to the Kessel deal, I said from the beginning it was a mistake. I was attacked vigorously by most of the Kool-aid drinkers who wanted to defend Burke and the deal. Some of those who now say they disagree with the deal were part of the group that was so self righteous at the time of the original deal.

Bottom line, here is the concern. Even though Burke makes all these deals he creates such a state of flux and change that the overall performance of the team does not improve. An organization can only absorb so much change. When the level of change becomes too disruptive, it is likely that the changes will drive a dislocation cost. So, even though the individual changes appear to suggest a net improvement. there is actually a loss of performance directly tied to the chaotic costs associated with the dislocation.

Nice review. I do have a few quibbles.

I could be convinced to like most of the deals that Burke has done, except for the Kessel deal. My objection has never been the deals specifically. Rather, it is the duplication of deals and the stockpiling of over age prospects. It is possible that some of these guys could be late bloomers and they will come around. I am inclined to believe they are just guessing and hoping something works out for them.

The other quibble that I have may be more problematic. If we could go back to the Kessel deal, I said from the beginning it was a mistake. I was attacked vigorously by most of the Kool-aid drinkers who wanted to defend Burke and the deal. Some of those who now say they disagree with the deal were part of the group that was so self righteous at the time of the original deal.

Bottom line, here is the concern. Even though Burke makes all these deals he creates such a state of flux and change that the overall performance of the team does not improve. An organization can only absorb so much change. When the level of change becomes too disruptive, it is likely that the changes will drive a dislocation cost. So, even though the individual changes appear to suggest a net improvement. there is actually a loss of performance directly tied to the chaotic costs associated with the dislocation.
- spatso

who are some of these over-agers?

20 year old Gardiner?
20 year old Aulie?
21 year old Colborne?

Nice review. I do have a few quibbles.

I could be convinced to like most of the deals that Burke has done, except for the Kessel deal. My objection has never been the deals specifically. Rather, it is the duplication of deals and the stockpiling of over age prospects. It is possible that some of these guys could be late bloomers and they will come around. I am inclined to believe they are just guessing and hoping something works out for them.

The other quibble that I have may be more problematic. If we could go back to the Kessel deal, I said from the beginning it was a mistake. I was attacked vigorously by most of the Kool-aid drinkers who wanted to defend Burke and the deal. Some of those who now say they disagree with the deal were part of the group that was so self righteous at the time of the original deal.

Bottom line, here is the concern. Even though Burke makes all these deals he creates such a state of flux and change that the overall performance of the team does not improve. An organization can only absorb so much change. When the level of change becomes too disruptive, it is likely that the changes will drive a dislocation cost. So, even though the individual changes appear to suggest a net improvement. there is actually a loss of performance directly tied to the chaotic costs associated with the dislocation.
- spatso

See, not even this is actually true. He took over the team in November 2008, almost December. he didn't really start making big moves until Jan. It's tough to say exactly how they would have finished that season without the moves he made, but they were on pace for about a 75 point season.

So, I would say it has improved. A lot? Not really. But it's in a position to improve much more now than it was when he took over. It basically had no chance to improve when he took over.

See, not even this is actually true. He took over the team in November 2008, almost December. he didn't really start making big moves until Jan. It's tough to say exactly how they would have finished that season without the moves he made, but they were on pace for about a 75 point season.

So, I would say it has improved. A lot? Not really. But it's in a position to improve much more now than it was when he took over. It basically had no chance to improve when he took over.
- prock

I agree entirely. There has not been any significant change over the JFJ regime in terms of final outcomes. One of the costs of the kind constant dislocation that the Leafs have been exposed to is a fragile identity. In practical terms this means that, generally, teams can succeed while things are going well, they can even thrive. But, when they hit a rough patch they have difficulty staying in right relationship with their overall purpose. Essentially, if the Leafs go on long extended losing streaks over this season it will have a lot to do with the dislocation cost caused by the constant pattern of change. It is hard to establish character when the nature of the beast is in constant flux.

who are some of these over-agers?

20 year old Gardiner?
20 year old Aulie?
21 year old Colborne?
- Schenn-Sational!

*ahem*

who are some of these over-agers?

20 year old Gardiner?
20 year old Aulie?
21 year old Colborne?
- Schenn-Sational!

Bump

I have always said I don't want to be negative about the individual kids. My question is primarily about Burke. In the case of Franson, Aulie and Gardiner they are all young guys that their drafting teams decided that they would let go. That alone tells you something about the asset. When each of these deals were done the Kool-aid drinkers where exuberant in their praise of Burke. There was universal glee on the part of many of the posters here that Burke had accomplished something remarkable. If it had been a single transaction I might have been more sympathetic, the fact that he has done multiple transactions involving players from the lower ranks of other teams depth charts tells you something about the Leafs overall talent pool.

I can explain a bit differently. The Kool-aid drinkers squealed with delight when Blowhard repaired the problems he had at center. Over the end of last season and during the summer he acquired Colborne, Connolly and Lombardy in their quest to find a number one center. Again, I don't want to knock any one of those individual players but just by listing them you begin to see the flim flam that Blowhard is tossing up.

On the other side of this equation he gets Steckle for a pick. A guy who is a proven role player who can kill penalties, take face-offs and be a very responsible guy late in the game. A guy who has always been a good third or fourth line player and he comes in and has played a really important part of the Leafs start. This deal was a traditional hockey deal. A team is trying to get down to roster and under the cap and they need to let go of a role player. Important to remember that the deal took place right near the cut off date for completing rosters. Clearly this was a great stand alone decision that puts into perspective the shallow nature of all the other stuff that is been thrown against the wall in hopes that something will stick.

Let's, for the sake of argument, assume that Blowhard had not done all of the stuff he did over the summer other than for the traditional hockey pick up he made for Steckle. The reality is none of it has made any difference, it has just been a lot of noise. Blowhard is essentially harmless, I do not doubt that he is well intentioned. But it is time for all of you who raved about all those great deals he made to come forward and admit that maybe the deals were not as spectacular as you first claimed that they might be. And, not all the GMs on other teams were fools who were outfoxed by the wise Toronto master of the deal. Indeed, there appears to be a growing truth in the legend that Blowhard really was finessed by Murray and mistakenly took Kadri with Cowen still sitting on the board.
- spatso

False... and you'd have to be a pretty big moron to actually believe that.

3 separate issued here, and all 3 are absolutely moronic. Can you post something that you don't make up?


EDIT: I love how you still hold on to this ridiculous notion that Burke forgot to draft Cowan, despite the lack of evidence. I've asked numerous times for your reasoning and failed to get any. The Leafs bigger need was and still is for a Kadri type player. NOt to mention that I've provided video evidence of Burke meeting with his scouting staff the day before where they discuss taking Kadri at 7, and yet you still hold to it that Burke meant to draft Cowan. I cannot think of a more moronic notion put forth on this site and that is saying something.

*ahem*
- Schenn-Sational!

Never going to happen......