GArdiner played 74 games in his rookie year avg 21:45/game, so yeah that's wrong.
- burn

Yeah and how did that go for him ?? did the leafs make the playoffs because of his role in the top4?? .Cowen was a rock in his first season as a shut down defender in the top 4 on a playoff team.When i said our pairings are more established this is what i meant .Cowen is and has proven himself a good second pairing shutdown defender and did more for his teams success in his role than gardener did in his rookie season .

Yeah and how did that go for him ?? did the leafs make the playoffs because of his role in the top4?? .Cowen was a rock in his first season as a shut down defender in the top 4 on a playoff team.When i said our pairings are more established this is what i meant .Cowen is and has proven himself a good second pairing shutdown defender and did more for his teams success in his role than gardener did in his rookie season .
- top shelf 15

GArdiner played top 4 (more mins than Cowen) and did very well..... not many rookie Dmen score> 30. He did alright.

Still haven't shown how one is more established than the other.

GArdiner played top 4 (more mins than Cowen) and did very well..... not many rookie Dmen score> 30. He did alright.

Still haven't shown how one is more established than the other.
- burn

Cowen has a full 82 game season on a playoff team where he was a top 4 defender,Gardener and Franson do not,i dont understand why you are not getting this.

Cowen has a full 82 game season on a playoff team where he was a top 4 defender,Gardener and Franson do not,i dont understand why you are not getting this.
- top shelf 15

GArdiner played top 4 (and more so than Cowen 21:45 VS 19mins). Not sure how you're not getting this.

You can only be an established player if you are on a playoff team.

I like learning new things.

You can only be an established player if you are on a playoff team.

I like learning new things.
- daeth

You can only be an established player if you are on a playoff team.

I like learning new things.
- daeth

Didn't Gardiner play in the playoffs last season?

I swear he did.

Total ice time for Cowen & Gardiner in 2011-2012

Cowen: 1,549:12
Gardiner: 1,618:51

Cowen had the 2nd worst +/- among defensemen on the team
Gardiner had the 2nd best +/- among defensemen on the team

Didn't Gardiner play in the playoffs last season?

I swear he did.
- Feeling Glucky?

HAs to be Rookie years, in a full 82 game season while making the playoffs to become established.

You can only be an established player if you are on a playoff team.

I like learning new things.
- daeth

So gardener was a proven top 4 defender in his rookie year ,the team misses playoffs gardener finds himself in the ahl to start following season,replaced by an ahl journeyman in kosita.Cowen plays a top 4 role and his team makes the playoffs partly because of his very good rookie season in which he plays all 82 games.But gets hurt misses most of a shortened nhl season ,but returns staright back into a top 4 role without going back to the ahl for polishing.And plays a good part in us advancing to the second round,but Gardener is more established how again????

Total ice time for Cowen & Gardiner in 2011-2012

Cowen: 1,549:12
Gardiner: 1,618:51

Cowen had the 2nd worst +/- among defensemen on the team
Gardiner had the 2nd best +/- among defensemen on the team
- daeth

Yeah, but....

Didn't Gardiner play in the playoffs last season?

I swear he did.
- Feeling Glucky?

Sure and cowen has been in two straight playoffs as a top 4 defender,has gardener??

So gardener was a proven top 4 defender in his rookie year ,the team misses playoffs gardener finds himself in the ahl to start following season,replaced by an ahl journeyman in kosita.Cowen plays a top 4 role and his team makes the playoffs partly because of his very good rookie season in which he plays all 82 games.But gets hurt misses most of a shortened nhl season ,but returns staright back into a top 4 role without going back to the ahl for polishing.And plays a good part in us advancing to the second round,but Gardener is more established how again????
- top shelf 15

He was injured you dimwit. The exact thing you accused me of claiming (when I didn't) that cause Cowen to not be top4 last year.


You are out of your league.

So gardener was a proven top 4 defender in his rookie year ,the team misses playoffs gardener finds himself in the ahl to start following season,replaced by an ahl journeyman in kosita.Cowen plays a top 4 role and his team makes the playoffs partly because of his very good rookie season in which he plays all 82 games.But gets hurt misses most of a shortened nhl season ,but returns staright back into a top 4 role without going back to the ahl for polishing.And plays a good part in us advancing to the second round,but Gardener is more established how again????
- top shelf 15

I don't think either player has proven anything really, though Gardiner's rookie season was as good as Cowen's and he was great in the playoffs vs Boston.

So gardener was a proven top 4 defender in his rookie year ,the team misses playoffs gardener finds himself in the ahl to start following season,replaced by an ahl journeyman in kosita.Cowen plays a top 4 role and his team makes the playoffs partly because of his very good rookie season in which he plays all 82 games.But gets hurt misses most of a shortened nhl season ,but returns staright back into a top 4 role without going back to the ahl for polishing.And plays a good part in us advancing to the second round,but Gardener is more established how again????
- top shelf 15

just (frank)ing wow!!

unbelievable.

who ties your shoes for you?

- Pie

that kind of terrifies me

just (frank)ing wow!!

unbelievable.

who ties your shoes for you?
- burn

Again has cowen not been in the playoffs twice to Gardeners once as a top 4 defender??

Instead of deflecting answer the question

Again has cowen not been in the playoffs twice to Gardeners once as a top 4 defender??

Instead of deflecting answer the question
- top shelf 15

Yes. Question answered....... how the (frank) does that make him more established.


*doesn't expect straight answer*

I don't think either player has proven anything really, though Gardiner's rookie season was as good as Cowen's and he was great in the playoffs vs Boston.
- daeth

Cowen did prove he was a top 4 defender on our team and did have a part in our team ,that many experts picked for last making the playoffs.This was the reason i said ottawa,s top 4 looks to be more established in their roles than toronto does at the moment.

But others seem to think i was just bashing away

Yes. Question answered....... how the (frank) does that make him more established.


*doesn't expect straight answer*
- burn

So having a defenseman that has proven worthy enough to play top 4 mins on a team that has made the playoffs two straight seasons ,isnt enough proof to suggest he may be a bit more established in his role as a top 4 defender .Than a defender that has yet to play a full 82 game sched with him in the top 4 in which his team made the playoffs

Cowen did prove he was a top 4 defender on our team and did have a part in our team ,that many experts picked for last making the playoffs.This was the reason i said ottawa,s top 4 looks to be more established in their roles than toronto does at the moment.

But others seem to think i was just bashing away
- top shelf 15

How can you keep missing the point.... I didn't say you were bashing. I never once said anything about skill or who was better than who.

This is all about how a guy with 90 NHL games (avg 19mins/game) is somehow more established than a guy with 87 NHL games (avg 21:45/game).

It's unfathomable to more established than a guy that has played more than you. it goes against the definition of the word.

Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, Ranger, Gardiner, Franson. Leafs have five players who can play in the top four. Of those Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, and Ranger have a fair bit of experience in that role while Gardiner and Franson don't.

Looks like Ottawa is kind of in a similar situation, though I still take Ottawa's D over Toronto's right now mostly because of Karlsson lol.

So having a defenseman that has proven worthy enough to play top 4 mins on a team that has made the playoffs two straight seasons ,isnt enough proof to suggest he may be a bit more established in his role as a top 4 defender .Than a defender that has yet to play a full 82 game sched with him in the top 4 in which his team made the playoffs
- top shelf 15

Yes. Making the playoffs is meaningless to the conversation.

GArdiner has played as a top 4 defenseman, and has played more mins doing so than Cowen.

Guys.... FYI, Crosby played 81 games in 05-06 putting up 39 goals, 102pts, but we had to wait til 06-07 to call him established.