there's more to analytics than corsi though.


1) Zone entries

2) Evaluating a player's luck offensively by looking at his sh% and on-ice sh%

3) Quality of shots taken/allowed when the player is on the ice
- Nucker101

Understand. I am not against analytics. I think analytics can make for fun discussions.

My problem is when people try to discount the scoreboard or the standings because a team won the fancy stat evaluation. All year we had to deal with the idea that the two best possession teams in the NHL were the Kings and Bruins. Just a pile of hooey.

you can bet nhl teams have actual real zone time and possession stats. some nerd gets paid to use a stopwatch and fill out spreadsheets while watching video all day.

corsi is just what we use to track possession since zone time is not officially tracked anywhere.

Understand. I am not against analytics. I think analytics can make for fun discussions.

My problem is when people try to discount the scoreboard or the standings because a team won the fancy stat evaluation. All year we had to deal with the idea that the two best possession teams in the NHL were the Kings and Bruins. Just a pile of hooey.
- spatso

Yeah, based on corsi, they were solid teams. But it goes deeper than that. To be a legitimately good team you do need to out-shoot your opponents more often than not, but to be an elite team, you need guys who can create high quality scoring chances, finish scoring chances, and prevent high scoring chances. Those things aren't measured by corsi.

LA had Budaj as their starter for nearly the whole year lol. Goaltending is a huge factor in winning games and completely overrides corsi.

you can bet nhl teams have actual real zone time and possession stats. some nerd gets paid to use a stopwatch and fill out spreadsheets while watching video all day.

corsi is just what we use to track possession since zone time is not officially tracked anywhere.
- daeth

Yup.


And people who think corsi is basically the end-all of analytics or 90% of analytics are misinformed.

LA had Budaj as their starter for nearly the whole year lol. Goaltending is a huge factor in winning games and completely overrides corsi.
- daeth

No doubt. Plus I believe most cup winning teams usually have goalies that are top 10 in saving shots in high-danger areas during that season.

Again, I highly doubt teams invested in analytics are using Corsi as their main evaluation tool. So yeah, some scrub player can trying shooting the puck a lot, but things like zone entries, quality of shots for/against will expose him for not being very talented.
- Nucker101

Absolutely agree. (never saw you say it the first time).

We're likely miles behind these analytics teams assembled, and a lot of the things you quote are probably out of date to them too.

No doubt. Plus I believe most cup winning teams usually have goalies that are top 10 in saving shots in high-danger areas during that season.
- Nucker101

I'm actually impressed that they were able to make Budaj look good. Dude's terrible.

LA did have trouble scoring this year too though. Kopitar was invisible and they only had two guys with at least 50 points. You'd think they'd be better next year though I don't really expect them to win a cup again.

Yup.


And people who think corsi is basically the end-all of analytics or 90% of analytics are misinformed.
- Nucker101

But the majority of advanced stats guys I see, point almost exclusively to Corsi at a team level, and CorsiRel at a player level (which is especially stupid), and that drives me insane. It's really where my ire with the advanced stats comes from.

I have no issues with taking Corsi, and the other related stats into consideration, where I take issue is when I see people use it in isolation, and brush aside all the other things, like zone starts, entries, qualcomp, etc. Along with the obvious ones as well (i.e. advanced stats don't make the simple ones obsolete), like goals, assists, primary assists, points per 60, even faceoffs. Especially over the course of more than two years, there are goals against, goals against per 60, which people brush aside far too quickly now. Quality of chances.

One stat in isolation will never tell the whole story. Hell, you can't really pick 10 stats that will always tell the whole story. Or 20 for that matter.

ps - the (frank)ing CorsiRel thing. Jesus christ, I've seen so many say that CorsiRel is "adjusted" for the team you're on. How (frank)ing stupid can some people be. It's not adjusted for the team you're on, it's IN COMPARISON TO the players on your team. There is a big difference.

Yeah, I'm sure you're insistence that it doesn't happen is much better than a coach and a player saying it does.

Such ignorance.

Whether you think it works or not, you're kidding yourself if you don't think some of these guys know it gets into contract negoatiations, and will try to "game" them. Of course it happens, you're naive to think it doesn't.
- prock

They didnt. Trotz showed a misunderstanding of what Corsi was, and the players said it might happen, but that they don't care about advanced stats.

And even if there was an attempt to do it, it wouldn't actually be of any benefit to the player.

I'm actually impressed that they were able to make Budaj look good. Dude's terrible.

LA did have trouble scoring this year too though. Kopitar was invisible and they only had two guys with at least 50 points. You'd think they'd be better next year though I don't really expect them to win a cup again.
- daeth

Without looking at the numbers, I'd guess their pdo is pretty low this year.

They didnt. Trotz showed a misunderstanding of what Corsi was, and the players said it might happen, but that they don't care about advanced stats.

And even if there was an attempt to do it, it wouldn't actually be of any benefit to the player.
- Feeling Glucky?

sure.

sure.
- prock

Excellent response.

Excellent response.
- Feeling Glucky?

you haven't said anything worthy of one.

trotz is talking about some guys looking to get a shot off instead of looking for a better scoring chance. he's talking about a player preferring to get the shot attempt, even if it's a useless one, instead of working it around to get a quality scoring chance. how does that display any sort of misunderstand of corsi?

you haven't said anything worthy of one.

trotz is talking about some guys looking to get a shot off instead of looking for a better scoring chance. he's talking about a player preferring to get the shot attempt, even if it's a useless one, instead of working it around to get a quality scoring chance. how does that display any sort of misunderstand of corsi?
- prock

I agree!

First period was best playoff team play for Sens so far.

I see Karlsson was padding his corsi last night.. shooting the puck from the corner.. I wonder if Trotz thinks he should have waited for a better shooting angle

you haven't said anything worthy of one.

trotz is talking about some guys looking to get a shot off instead of looking for a better scoring chance. he's talking about a player preferring to get the shot attempt, even if it's a useless one, instead of working it around to get a quality scoring chance. how does that display any sort of misunderstand of corsi?
- prock

Because he doesn't recognize that when they take a bad shot that his guys recover, and turn into zone time and pressure, that results in a net negative for those guys.

I've explained this like 6 times now.

I see Karlsson was padding his corsi last night.. shooting the puck from the corner.. I wonder if Trotz thinks he should have waited for a better shooting angle
- senstroll

I came here to say the same thing.

Off topic......ive been gone for a couple of months, just got back and have to ask......WHAT THE (frank) IS UP WITH THE JAYS? how is it possible that they're the worst team in the league? I know it's early but DAMN!!

Off topic......ive been gone for a couple of months, just got back and have to ask......WHAT THE (frank) IS UP WITH THE JAYS? how is it possible that they're the worst team in the league? I know it's early but DAMN!!
- sensarmy_11

one less win than Kansas City.

The Canadian Tire Centre wasn't sold out?
2000 empty seats on the warmest day in Ottawa in 7 months.

W.T.F.

Because he doesn't recognize that when they take a bad shot that his guys recover, and turn into zone time and pressure, that results in a net negative for those guys.

I've explained this like 6 times now.
- Feeling Glucky?

Nobody is padding thier corsi stats, maybe a few extra shots here and there over a season.

There are lots of other stats to debunk that stuff, shot distances and DH/LD areas.

Off topic......ive been gone for a couple of months, just got back and have to ask......WHAT THE (frank) IS UP WITH THE JAYS? how is it possible that they're the worst team in the league? I know it's early but DAMN!!
- sensarmy_11

after yesterday I am really thinking its not going to happen this season
Osuna has been awful, he was really the one player you could count on. He says he is fine, but It doesnt look like it

Unless they get everyone back soon and healthy I dont see how they can get back in the race