Here's Kessel 42 goals total scored in 08-09'. I'm getting a little tired of the excuse of him only scoring because of Savard since the same people said the same thing about Sarard himself when he playedb in Atlanta (he'll never score as many points without Kovalchuk)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqXSQz6FI5s


Fact: Kessel played just over 16 minutes a night. His 36 goals in 70 games is fantastic given his rather modest ice time.
- RogerRoeper

Almost half of those were scored simply due to his speed and shot. I do think he'd initially see a drop in production due to being on a team with little offensive talent to support him, but I also don't see why he can't reach 40+ goals on this team at some point. He has the tools for it.

Well I didn't say that.... Kessel may have gotten some time with Savard, but according to NHLcom, based on the amount of shifts he averaged on Boston I would say it was more like 2nd line duty. Kessel was 7th on the Bruins for average shifts per night for forwards, not exactly 1st line expectations.
- Big T

The whole argument was that Kessel played with Savard and can only play with Savard.

Which also means he was not matched up with the oppositions top checking unit.. Unless the Leafs have a first line that will get the attention, Kessel is going to be getting a lot tougher line match ups.
- Big T

The same thing was said about Vanek after he got his big contract. His points have dropped, but he has still scored 36 and 40 goals. The extra ice time (especially PP time) makes up for the tougher matchups I think.

Well I didn't say that.... Kessel may have gotten some time with Savard, but according to NHLcom, based on the amount of shifts he averaged on Boston I would say it was more like 2nd line duty. Kessel was 7th on the Bruins for average shifts per night for forwards, not exactly 1st line expectations.
- Big T

The point is, he got a lot of goals given his avg. ice time. He'll also see a lot more PP duty on the Leafs.

Teams weren't ignoring him on Boston, given he was their leading goal scorer.

The point is, he got a lot of goals given his avg. ice time. He'll also see a lot more PP duty on the Leafs.

Teams weren't ignoring him on Boston, given he was their leading goal scorer.
- RogerRoeper

I am pretty sure Savard's line would get the toughest matchup, but whatever supports your argument the best...

I am pretty sure Savard's line would get the toughest matchup, but whatever supports your argument the best...
- Big T

He was on Savard's line.

This is just aniother example of a fan base overhyping the players on their roster. If Kessel was dealt to Ottawa for 2 firsts and a 2nd then the board would be filled with Leaf fan crapping all over the move but when it happens to your home team we fans find a way to justify the move. This happens every single year with every single fan base.

We overpraise our own players and downgrade the players on opposing teams.

I am pretty sure Savard's line would get the toughest matchup, but whatever supports your argument the best...
- Big T

He was on Savard's line.


What I find funny is, everyone is saying he scored because of Savard. Now you're making another excuse for his goals for the times he didn't play with Savard.

This is just aniother example of a fan base overhyping the players on their roster. If Kessel was dealt to Ottawa for 2 firsts and a 2nd then the board would be filled with Leaf fan crapping all over the move but when it happens to your home team we fans find a way to justify the move. This happens every single year with every single fan base.

We overpraise our own players and downgrade the players on opposing teams.
- willey101

You're right.

This is just aniother example of a fan base overhyping the players on their roster. If Kessel was dealt to Ottawa for 2 firsts and a 2nd then the board would be filled with Leaf fan crapping all over the move but when it happens to your home team we fans find a way to justify the move. This happens every single year with every single fan base.

We overpraise our own players and downgrade the players on opposing teams.
- willey101

I think there is some truth in what you are saying. But, there is a big difference. When was the last time Ottawa traded away a first round pick? My sense is Ottawa fans would be enraged had Ottawa traded away two first round picks for anyone other than a star player. Leaf fans have been desensitized by some really awful deals where their 1st round pick was surrendered without even firing a shot. We are used to having our future stolen, we don't resist, sometimes it is done at our insistence.

I think there is some truth in what you are saying. But, there is a big difference. When was the last time Ottawa traded away a first round pick? My sense is Ottawa fans would be enraged had Ottawa traded away two first round picks for anyone other than a star player. Leaf fans have been desensitized by some really awful deals where their 1st round pick was surrendered without even firing a shot. We are used to having our future stolen, we don't resist, sometimes it is done at our insistence.
- spatso

How did we have our future stolen in this instance?? We got a 22 year old sniper.

He was on Savard's line.


What I find funny is, everyone is saying he scored because of Savard. Now you're making another excuse for his goals for the times he didn't play with Savard.
- RogerRoeper

Well to start with, I never ever suggested that he benefitted from Savard, and research shows the Kessel was 7th amoungst Bruin forwards for average shifts per night, so very unlikely he was a regular on the 1st line often. You guys can hype him all you want, he may be a 30 goal guy in a Leafs uniform, but it will be interesting to see how he reacts to being the go to guy, being matched up against the oppositions top guys night after night and shift after shift without the supporting cast he had.

Well to start with, I never ever suggested that he benefitted from Savard, and research shows the Kessel was 7th amoungst Bruin forwards for average shifts per night, so very unlikely he was a regular on the 1st line often. You guys can hype him all you want, he may be a 30 goal guy in a Leafs uniform, but it will be interesting to see how he reacts to being the go to guy, being matched up against the oppositions top guys night after night and shift after shift without the supporting cast he had.
- Big T

The bolded part he's already done. He played with Savard, therefore he did face the top checkers/D pair regularly.

Just because he didn't play the same amount as Savard, doesn't mean he didn't play with him, it just means that Savard had extra shifts without him.


I'm looking forward to seeing him play more than 16:30 mins/game.

The bolded part he's already done. He played with Savard, therefore he did face the top checkers/D pair regularly.

Just because he didn't play the same amount as Savard, doesn't mean he didn't play with him, it just means that Savard had extra shifts without him.


I'm looking forward to seeing him play more than 16:30 mins/game.
- burn

Well time will tell how he does in Toronto, you guys certainly have high expectations of him...

How did we have our future stolen in this instance?? We got a 22 year old sniper.
- burn

Look I have heard it all before. We always say this deal will be different. This is the one case where the draft does not matter. Really! If you mean it does not matter because there has never been a significant Leaf rebuilding process you are probably right. But if nothing changes, nothing changes. What is any different in this drama, we have seen it all before.

I think there is some truth in what you are saying. But, there is a big difference. When was the last time Ottawa traded away a first round pick? My sense is Ottawa fans would be enraged had Ottawa traded away two first round picks for anyone other than a star player. Leaf fans have been desensitized by some really awful deals where their 1st round pick was surrendered without even firing a shot. We are used to having our future stolen, we don't resist, sometimes it is done at our insistence.
- spatso

Thats pretty lame.......it's OK to deal away alot of picks and/or prospects because in the past we had troubles. Thts ridiculous. If Burke's plan fails this year and Toronto gets a shot at the lottery then imagie Tyler Hall + 1st round pick next year for Kessel. Sounds good right.

Kessel is a pretty good player but he has not proven thus far to be a game breaker or a difference maker. It;s alot to give up for a team who just last year was preaching being a rebuilding team.

Well time will tell how he does in Toronto, you guys certainly have high expectations of him...
- Big T

Why??

A 21 year old that was highly rated in his draft year and scored 36 goals + 6 playoff goals. No reason to not have high hopes.


You continually downgrade him by saying he didn't play against the top checkers, while others are saying that he's only good because of Savard. All of that is bogus. He's a good player and only 22, no reason to believe he can't continue to improve. How much, who knows. But it's pretty stupid to knock down a young guy like has been going on around here.

Look I have heard it all before. We always say this deal will be different. This is the one case where the draft does not matter. Really! If you mean it does not matter because there has never been a significant Leaf rebuilding process you are probably right. But if nothing changes, nothing changes. What is any different in this drama, we have seen it all before.
- spatso

Huh??

Yeah we took a big gamble by moving the picks, but we hardly mortgaged the future. We got a 22 year old who just scored 36 goals. I never said that the picks weren't important, they are. I know they are. It's going to be a couple years before we really can read this trade. How does Kessel develop?? Ho does he handle Toronto?? What becomes of the picks we moved??


Seems like you are writing off the deal because we moved draft picks like previous times, but this isn't a 33 year old Owen Nolan that is damaged goods.

Why??

A 21 year old that was highly rated in his draft year and scored 36 goals + 6 playoff goals. No reason to not have high hopes.


You continually downgrade him by saying he didn't play against the top checkers, while others are saying that he's only good because of Savard. All of that is bogus. He's a good player and only 22, no reason to believe he can't continue to improve. How much, who knows. But it's pretty stupid to knock down a young guy like has been going on around here.
- burn

I am not knocking him down, I am suggesting he may not match his one year production in a Leaf uniform because of the lack of talent around him, and being the go to guy. Just tampering the expectations.... something Burke and Leaf fans should understand.

Why??

A 21 year old that was highly rated in his draft year and scored 36 goals + 6 playoff goals. No reason to not have high hopes.


You continually downgrade him by saying he didn't play against the top checkers, while others are saying that he's only good because of Savard. All of that is bogus. He's a good player and only 22, no reason to believe he can't continue to improve. How much, who knows. But it's pretty stupid to knock down a young guy like has been going on around here.
- burn

It's impossible I think to determine how this deal will work until all is said and done. Will Kessel improve possibly, will he fliounder with a #1 center perhaps? Will he score 30+ goals no reason to be belive he can't but like every other team and most other players Kessel has question marks.

Going from Lucic and Savard to Grabovski and hagman or Stalberg is hardly the same.

It's impossible I think to determine how this deal will work until all is said and done. Will Kessel improve possibly, will he fliounder with a #1 center perhaps? Will he score 30+ goals no reason to be belive he can't but like every other team and most other players Kessel has question marks.

Going from Lucic and Savard to Grabovski and hagman or Stalberg is hardly the same.
- willey101

Agreed, I believe this is what I said.

The point is, in the post I quoted the guy said that we've seen this before. Yeah we've traded 1st before but not for 22 year old players. It's not the same as previous deals. Will it work out better/worse than those previous deals?? Don't know, but it's not the same as before. That's my point.

Agreed, I believe this is what I said.

The point is, in the post I quoted the guy said that we've seen this before. Yeah we've traded 1st before but not for 22 year old players. It's not the same as previous deals. Will it work out better/worse than those previous deals?? Don't know, but it's not the same as before. That's my point.
- burn

The parameters are better but the result are not yet known. If those 1st turn into Hall and someone else then it retrospect it is a bad move. if Kessel becomes a bust then it retrospect it is a bust. I think the problem is that Toronto needed to rebuild but Burke is an impulsive GM who wants results now. Signing all those NCAA players was a huge bonus.

The parameters are better but the result are not yet known. If those 1st turn into Hall and someone else then it retrospect it is a bad move. if Kessel becomes a bust then it retrospect it is a bust. I think the problem is that Toronto needed to rebuild but Burke is an impulsive GM who wants results now. Signing all those NCAA players was a huge bonus.
- willey101

I agree with most. I don't think we ever had a chance at Hall, even if we struggle we wont be 1st or 2nd overall(picks). Look at how bad we were last year and we were 7th. So the notion of "giving up Hall" isn't really true, IMO.

The parameters were what I was questioning with the poster that was lamenting the trade. I agree that it'll take some time to see how it all plays out to see how this trade shakes down. By point was just that getting a 21 year old (22 now) who scored 36 goals is different from the past.

In the past we used to trade 1st for a 36 year old who scored 21 goals, now we got a 21 year old who scored 36.

I agree with most. I don't think we ever had a chance at Hall, even if we struggle we wont be 1st or 2nd overall(picks). Look at how bad we were last year and we were 7th. So the notion of "giving up Hall" isn't really true, IMO.

The parameters were what I was questioning with the poster that was lamenting the trade. I agree that it'll take some time to see how it all plays out to see how this trade shakes down. By point was just that getting a 21 year old (22 now) who scored 36 goals is different from the past.

In the past we used to trade 1st for a 36 year old who scored 21 goals, now we got a 21 year old who scored 36.
- burn

Never say never. Who would have thought a few years back Philly would be last in the East. Bad goaltending right now, a defense who are not communicating with one another and a lack of socring prowess. The ship will be righted but right now there are problems.

Never say never. Who would have thought a few years back Philly would be last in the East. Bad goaltending right now, a defense who are not communicating with one another and a lack of socring prowess. The ship will be righted but right now there are problems.
- willey101

Agreed. We had the worst goaltending last year and finished #7. I don't see us getting higher than that.