Read again.

All I'm saying is if I have the choice between two similar players in style, skill, scoring, and level of play and only one of the two has a Cup ring, I'd take the one who has won it all before over the other one who has not.
- hello_there

When one is paid $4.25M, and older, and the other $2M, then who is your choice?

When one is paid $4.25M, and older, and the other $2M, then who is your choice?
- prock

It depends on your cap situation. I prefer Penner over Ponikarovski, that's for sure.

It depends on your cap situation. I prefer Penner over Ponikarovski, that's for sure.
- hello_there

Yeah well Penner has never scored as many points as Ponikarovsky.

It depends on your cap situation. I prefer Penner over Ponikarovski, that's for sure.
- hello_there

Not really. If you're trying to win now, the extra $2M space can be used to sign a top player. If you're not, and you have piles of cap space, you still want the cheaper guy. All things equal, the guy with less cap hit is better.

Yeah well Penner has never scored as many points as Ponikarovsky.
- RogerRoeper

maybe you should check out their current numbers.. i would say that he is outscoring poni by a pretty large margin

looks like they are coming back to earth.....

maybe you should check out their current numbers.. i would say that he is outscoring poni by a pretty large margin
- gretzky

Penner is a 50 to 60 point winger, so is Ponikarovski. Again, keep dwelling on that 19 points in 13 games, because he hasn't done much since.

Penner is a 50 to 60 point winger, so is Ponikarovski. Again, keep dwelling on that 19 points in 13 games, because he hasn't done much since.
- prock

Not to mention a lot of money for said production. AP = 2.1M and DP 4.25M per.

maybe you should check out their current numbers.. i would say that he is outscoring poni by a pretty large margin
- gretzky

And we'll see how it ends up. Only half a season.

maybe you should check out their current numbers.. i would say that he is outscoring poni by a pretty large margin
- gretzky

Define "Current". Is it last 10 games? Last 20 games? Last 40 games?

Define "Current". Is it last 10 games? Last 20 games? Last 40 games?
- prock

I'm not sure why this thread has become a "war" of Poni versus Penner...but points wise this season there isn't a huge difference between the two. I mean, 10 points does not constitute a wide margin in my books. If the trends stay the same and Penner ends up with 20more points at the end of the season, THEN, yes this season Penner would have had a much better season (stats wise) than Poni and he may actually earn his salary this year.

Personally I like both players and think to a point both are or have been under rated. Either way they are both solid 2nd line players. Poni has a better price tag for the production vs Penner...BUT....despite Penner only being a about a year and a half younger, I think Penner has a greater upside. Particularly when he learns to use his size to his advantage - on a regular basis.

ProcK - You can not classify Poinikarovsky as a "50 - 60" point winger. He's broken the 45 point barrier ONCE in his career (last season)....Penner, same thing applies, his best season has been a 47point campaign.

At best they fall into the 40-50point class but are capable of more.

"You have one (expletive) goal in your last 10 games," Wilson said to Kessel.

The 22-year-old's struggles have been monumental in recent weeks; the goal Wilson is referring to came on December 30th against the Oilers (his only point in the last 10 games). Kessel is a minus-8 over that period.

Wilson was then asked by reporters why he had addressed Kessel personally.

"I could single out a bunch of guys but he's our best player," said Wilson. "And a lot of times that needs to be the message."

ProcK - You can not classify Poinikarovsky as a "50 - 60" point winger. He's broken the 45 point barrier ONCE in his career (last season)....Penner, same thing applies, his best season has been a 47point campaign.

At best they fall into the 40-50point class but are capable of more.
- Sens2k5

While that's certainly a fair statement, Poni's 45 point season was cut short by injury. He was on pace for over 50. Assuming that he finishes with over 50 again this year (certainly looks that way), it would be 3 out of the last 4 years he's at least been on that pace. I don't really think that it's stretch to say that he's a 50 to 60 point guy, if you want to add the stipulation "over a full season".

As I read through the thread it appears that confidence in the Buds seems to have come to an all time low. I don't think that there is any doubt that Wilson attempting to humiliate Kessel cannot stand without some form of response. Blowhard has got to step in a support his star player or this situation goes from bad to chaos. I do not know how they fix it. I did not think they could make it any worse than is was, but they have!

Define "Current". Is it last 10 games? Last 20 games? Last 40 games?
- prock

40 points in 43 games on the 29th placed team and a +9.

Fling semantics about all you like, Penner is better than Poni. I seriously can't believe there's even a comparison being made. Penner is better than any player the Leaf's have and yes, that includes Kessel too. We can also do the "well how many points in the last _____ games does he have?" if you like.

"You have one (expletive) goal in your last 10 games," Wilson said to Kessel.

The 22-year-old's struggles have been monumental in recent weeks; the goal Wilson is referring to came on December 30th against the Oilers (his only point in the last 10 games). Kessel is a minus-8 over that period.

Wilson was then asked by reporters why he had addressed Kessel personally.

"I could single out a bunch of guys but he's our best player," said Wilson. "And a lot of times that needs to be the message."


- bruinsbeer1969

Nice blow to Kaberle.

40 points in 43 games on the 29th placed team and a +9.

Fling semantics about all you like, Penner is better than Poni. I seriously can't believe there's even a comparison being made. Penner is better than any player the Leaf's have and yes, that includes Kessel too. We can also do the "well how many points in the last _____ games does he have?" if you like.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

First of all, you tried to answer the question "define current" and all you did was post his stats. More current is a 10 or 20 game stretch, which his production is leveling off, or is just slumping...it remains to be seen.

When I read this, I didnt see much of a reason to post...until the kessel comment. I'm sorry, people talk about leafs fans being homers but wow, really? Penner > Kessel? If you look at pure stats, Kessel is putting up points at the same rate as Penner. Kessel is 5 years younger and considered to be a potential elite sniper. I'm sorry, there is now way I take penner over kessel, even with his high numbers this year (and by this year I mean about 15 games). If he averages 70 points over the next 3 seasons, then make this argument. Hes 27, a point where production and consistance are whats valued.

Also curious to see what people other than oiler and leafs fan think.

First of all, you tried to answer the question "define current" and all you did was post his stats. More current is a 10 or 20 game stretch, which his production is leveling off, or is just slumping...it remains to be seen.

When I read this, I didnt see much of a reason to post...until the kessel comment. I'm sorry, people talk about leafs fans being homers but wow, really? Penner > Kessel? If you look at pure stats, Kessel is putting up points at the same rate as Penner. Kessel is 5 years younger and considered to be a potential elite sniper. I'm sorry, there is now way I take penner over kessel, even with his high numbers this year (and by this year I mean about 15 games). If he averages 70 points over the next 3 seasons, then make this argument. Hes 27, a point where production and consistance are whats valued.

Also curious to see what people other than oiler and leafs fan think.
- wendelclark

I kind of regretted that post I admit, because there's really nothing concrete to back it up.
They're both good players, but play very different styles of games. Penner's game is based on driving the net, creating havoc in the blue paint and getting rebounds and tip-ins. Kessel's game is based on keeping his feet moving, finding seams and good lanes for wrist shots.
Having said that, neither is playing particularly well right now, so I've decided it's kind of a silly debate. about the best player on the 28th and 29th placed teams. Like arguing about whether poop or vomit smells worse.

I kind of regretted that post I admit, because there's really nothing concrete to back it up.
They're both good players, but play very different styles of games. Penner's game is based on driving the net, creating havoc in the blue paint and getting rebounds and tip-ins. Kessel's game is based on keeping his feet moving, finding seams and good lanes for wrist shots.
Having said that, neither is playing particularly well right now, so I've decided it's kind of a silly debate. about the best player on the 28th and 29th placed teams. Like arguing about whether poop or vomit smells worse.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

Agreed.

First of all, you tried to answer the question "define current" and all you did was post his stats. More current is a 10 or 20 game stretch, which his production is leveling off, or is just slumping...it remains to be seen.

When I read this, I didnt see much of a reason to post...until the kessel comment. I'm sorry, people talk about leafs fans being homers but wow, really? Penner > Kessel? If you look at pure stats, Kessel is putting up points at the same rate as Penner. Kessel is 5 years younger and considered to be a potential elite sniper. I'm sorry, there is now way I take penner over kessel, even with his high numbers this year (and by this year I mean about 15 games). If he averages 70 points over the next 3 seasons, then make this argument. Hes 27, a point where production and consistance are whats valued.

Also curious to see what people other than oiler and leafs fan think.
- wendelclark

i stopped reading here.... maybe check the stats before you run your mouth.

40 points in 43 games on the 29th placed team and a +9.

Fling semantics about all you like, Penner is better than Poni. I seriously can't believe there's even a comparison being made. Penner is better than any player the Leaf's have and yes, that includes Kessel too. We can also do the "well how many points in the last _____ games does he have?" if you like.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

You can question the price it cost to bring Kessel to Toronto.....BUT you CAN NOT question his skill and potential. There is no way in hell ANYONE of sound mind or ANY GM would ever take Penner over Kessel! I hate to agree with a Leafs fan (it physically hurts)...but that comment takes away all credibility from your arguement and makes you appear to be a "homer", plain and simple.

It's clear that the only reason you are trying to insert Kessel into the debate now is because he is in a 10 game slump (not uncommon for top scorers by the way). If you want to get in to the points a little bit between these two...then okay....since the beginning of decemeber to now Penner has 10 pts in 17games (9 points if you go by the Nhlpa's numbers) Kessel (during the same time frame) has 11points in 19games.

Monumental difference...no. At the end of the year Penner may even finish with a higher points total than Kessel...but I wouldn't say that means Penner is better. Penner certainly isn't coming off of shoulder surgery and didn't start the season on the IR so that factors in......but again points or no points..Kessel is the player everyone would take over Penner.

Don't even try to say I don't know what I am talking about or that I am hating on Penner....cause that is the furthest from the truth. The fact is I was really disappointed this summer when the deal with EDM fell through. I like Cogs, but I also really like Penner and thought he would be a good fit for Ottawa. Hell, if there was still a way to get him here I'd be interested.

You can question the price it cost to bring Kessel to Toronto.....BUT you CAN NOT question his skill and potential. There is no way in hell ANYONE of sound mind or ANY GM would ever take Penner over Kessel! I hate to agree with a Leafs fan (it physically hurts)...but that comment takes away all credibility from your arguement and makes you appear to be a "homer", plain and simple.

It's clear that the only reason you are trying to insert Kessel into the debate now is because he is in a 10 game slump (not uncommon for top scorers by the way). If you want to get in to the points a little bit between these two...then okay....since the beginning of decemeber to now Penner has 10 pts in 17games (9 points if you go by the Nhlpa's numbers) Kessel (during the same time frame) has 11points in 19games.

Monumental difference...no. At the end of the year Penner may even finish with a higher points total than Kessel...but I wouldn't say that means Penner is better. Penner certainly isn't coming off of shoulder surgery and didn't start the season on the IR so that factors in......but again points or no points..Kessel is the player everyone would take over Penner.

Don't even try to say I don't know what I am talking about or that I am hating on Penner....cause that is the furthest from the truth. The fact is I was really disappointed this summer when the deal with EDM fell through. I like Cogs, but I also really like Penner and thought he would be a good fit for Ottawa. Hell, if there was still a way to get him here I'd be interested.
- Sens2k5

Maybe you didn't read the addendum to that post you quoted. Which is a shame, because it would have saved you a lot of typing.

You can question the price it cost to bring Kessel to Toronto.....BUT you CAN NOT question his skill and potential. There is no way in hell ANYONE of sound mind or ANY GM would ever take Penner over Kessel! I hate to agree with a Leafs fan (it physically hurts)...but that comment takes away all credibility from your arguement and makes you appear to be a "homer", plain and simple.

It's clear that the only reason you are trying to insert Kessel into the debate now is because he is in a 10 game slump (not uncommon for top scorers by the way). If you want to get in to the points a little bit between these two...then okay....since the beginning of decemeber to now Penner has 10 pts in 17games (9 points if you go by the Nhlpa's numbers) Kessel (during the same time frame) has 11points in 19games.

Monumental difference...no. At the end of the year Penner may even finish with a higher points total than Kessel...but I wouldn't say that means Penner is better. Penner certainly isn't coming off of shoulder surgery and didn't start the season on the IR so that factors in......but again points or no points..Kessel is the player everyone would take over Penner.

Don't even try to say I don't know what I am talking about or that I am hating on Penner....cause that is the furthest from the truth. The fact is I was really disappointed this summer when the deal with EDM fell through. I like Cogs, but I also really like Penner and thought he would be a good fit for Ottawa. Hell, if there was still a way to get him here I'd be interested.
- Sens2k5

how does this post make any sense? penner MIGHT finish with more points? penner is going to finish with ALOT more points because not only is he playing better but he is going to play MORE than kessel. and i dont understand how u can say that even if penner finishes with more points he isnt as good as kessel.... if penner finishes with more points, he was better plain and simple. he is better defensively, bigger, and is one of our best PKers.

thats like saying if mike fisher finishes with more points than robert nilsson, nilsson is still better... one trick ponies are one trick ponies.... if they are performing their "trick" they arent any good.

Maybe you didn't read the addendum to that post you quoted. Which is a shame, because it would have saved you a lot of typing.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

No i didn't, the addendum went up while i was responding. Oh well, it's 20 or 30 seconds I'll never get back.

No i didn't, the addendum went up while i was responding. Oh well, it's 20 or 30 seconds I'll never get back.
- Sens2k5

It sucks being a fan of a team that's losing so much. Every time I show any bravado about my team, I actually feel guilty about it.