And all we heard was "waaaahhhh, our D were injured, that's why we lost". That's because they had no depth. also they were yellow bellied diving cowards, I guess.
- prock

I'm a Canuck fan who complains and gets in huge arguements because I'm disgusted with diving and yapping to the refs. You are a fool.

Enjoy 1967. Comeback when you can accomplish at least more than one conference final in 45 years.....wow, no matter how many times I say it...it still sounds that bad/

1967! RARARA! We went two rounds...1967! RARARA!

He doesn't look like he'll be a good player to you? Well I guess if you're looking at the maple laughs to show you what good players are all about then I can see where you're coming from.

He works smart and hard every game. Defensively sound and offensively aware. I know I may as well be speaking Greek to you.

League must have made him a member of rookie all star squad to make us feel better about ourselves.
- natowar

I'm sure that is what it looks like to a Canucks fan. No, I'm not overly impressed.

Again, look at the list of players doing more THIS year. Look at the list of rookies doing more last year. It's nothing special. Try find the comparables of guys that put up those numbers as 22 year old rookies, and look at the names. It's not a great list.

I'm sure that is what it looks like to a Canucks fan. No, I'm not overly impressed.

Again, look at the list of players doing more THIS year. Look at the list of rookies doing more last year. It's nothing special. Try find the comparables of guys that put up those numbers as 22 year old rookies, and look at the names. It's not a great list.
- prock

Yeah, this team is a complete disaster. never going anywhere...

You are just what we need around here. Someone who wants his tradgic team's rich history and success exposed.

I hardly think you are hurting anyones feelings with all this talk about Cody failing.

I'm sure that is what it looks like to a Canucks fan. No, I'm not overly impressed.

Again, look at the list of players doing more THIS year. Look at the list of rookies doing more last year. It's nothing special. Try find the comparables of guys that put up those numbers as 22 year old rookies, and look at the names. It's not a great list.
- prock

AH and there we have it as well. You don't have the ability to watch a player and see that they are good or not without relating stats. I didn't need to know that David Backes was gonna score 25-30 goals when he was putting up nothing to see he was going to be a very good player.

Just because Svatos puts up 30 goals didn't mean he was going to be a good player, conversely.

You need to be lead by the hand to every good player in the league and that's fine. I don't expect Hodgson to score 80-100 points a year. I expect him to be a very well rounded player that you can count on in all areas of the game, will kill penalties, take face offs, score important goals and be the kind of player you WIN with. On top give you 50-75 points

That's why he's valuable. He is a winner. You, as I have pointed out can be forgiven for being unable to recognize one since it's been so long that you've had one on your roster.

Yeah, this team is a complete disaster. never going anywhere...

You are just what we need around here. Someone who wants his tradgic team's rich history and success exposed.

I hardly think you are hurting anyones feelings with all this talk about Cody failing.
- boonerbuck

I'm not sure why you're taking this so personally, and trying to put words in my mouth, in order to attempt to make your point. I never said your team isn't going anywhere. Not to the cup, but I wouldn't say "nowhere".

AH and there we have it as well. You don't have the ability to watch a player and see that they are good or not without relating stats. I didn't need to know that David Backes was gonna score 25-30 goals when he was putting up nothing to see he was going to be a very good player.

Just because Svatos puts up 30 goals didn't mean he was going to be a good player, conversely.

You need to be lead by the hand to every good player in the league and that's fine. I don't expect Hodgson to score 80-100 points a year. I expect him to be a very well rounded player that you can count on in all areas of the game, will kill penalties, take face offs, score important goals and be the kind of player you WIN with. On top give you 50-75 points

That's why he's valuable. He is a winner. You, as I have pointed out can be forgiven for being unable to recognize one since it's been so long that you've had one on your roster.
- natowar

Ahh, I see, you're point to his memorial cup and Calder Cup victories to show he's a winner.

I'm not sure why you're taking this so personally, and trying to put words in my mouth, in order to attempt to make your point. I never said your team isn't going anywhere. Not to the cup, but I wouldn't say "nowhere".
- prock

Where's your team going prock? If they make the playoffs...it will because a playoff spot was Washingtons to lose. Congradulations...no amount of Burke's wizardry in your draft will help or at the TDL....just other teams short comings will be your success.

The only reason Burke's draft success is paying off for the Canucks is because it's from a time when Burke didnt trade away all his future. He's not that GM anymore. We got rid of him before he turned into that GM. Unfotunitly, his right hand man couldnt even take Burkes team to success. He saw the playoffs once where Burke at least had us there 3 years in a row. Good luck with those two...

Where's your team going prock? If they make the playoffs...it will because a playoff spot was Washingtons to lose. Congradulations...no amount of Burke's wizardry in your draft will help or at the TDL....just other teams short comings will be your success.

The only reason Burke's draft success is paying off for the Canucks is because it's from a time when Burke didnt trade away all his future. He's not that GM anymore. We got rid of him before he turned into that GM. Unfotunitly, his right hand man couldnt even take Burkes team to success. He saw the playoffs once where Burke at least had us there 3 years in a row. Good luck with those two...
- boonerbuck

I love how you change the subject. LOL.

AH and there we have it as well. You don't have the ability to watch a player and see that they are good or not without relating stats.
- natowar

I will be you every other jackass that is a fan of another team, with some half-azzed rookie putting up 35 points and not contributing elsewhere will tell you the same thing.... "No, you have to watch him to see". I bet you some Hawks fans said the exact same thing you're saying right now, about Bryan Bickell..... Yeah, I know he isn't scoring much, hitting much, playing on the PK, winning faceoffs, but I swear it, he's the bestest if you watch him.

Ahh, I see, you're point to his memorial cup and Calder Cup victories to show he's a winner.
- prock

No Prock. While those stats may be true, you've once again used stats instead of relying on the way a male human plays the game of hockey. I don't think you are capable of understanding it.

“He’s a good professional. He’s going to get better. He’s a leader. They got a good young man here.”

-Pat Quinn on Hodgson

No Prock. While those stats may be true, you've once again used stats instead of relying on the way a male human plays the game of hockey. I don't think you are capable of understanding it.

“He’s a good professional. He’s going to get better. He’s a leader. They got a good young man here.”

-Pat Quinn on Hodgson
- natowar

I thought you said he was a winner. What does he win?

I thought you said he was a winner. What does he win?
- prock

He wins hockey games Prock.
That's what leaders do. Help you win hockey games.

I don't hold it against you for not knowing that, you haven't had a leader since Mats left.

The Leafs have more center depth that the Canucks? You get worse with time Prock.

Kessel and Grabovski better than Henrik Sedin(Hart and scoring title) and Kesler (41 g and a selke).

Bozak is only doing as well as Cody...in his 3rd season. Explain that to me? He finished a -29 last season.

The Leafs have never made it to the 4rth round....EVER EVER EVER. They won their last cup in a six team league where only two dont makes it and the playoffs only went two rounds. It was harder to win football, soccer, basketball, baseball, and bowling championships back then. Be proud of your history but Vancouver has clearly been a better playoff team during the time frame in their existence. Thats just perfect. We don't even have to beat up on you guys...you do it yourself all the while thinking you have something to brag about.

I cant wait to see the Jets bump you guys...that would be so rich.
- boonerbuck

First of all, more centre depth =/= better at centre (esp when you're talking about the top 6). PS. Kessel is a RW.

second, I think his contention is that while Grabovski-Conolly/Bozak may be an inferior top 6 set than Sedin-Kesler, both firmly would hold top 6 spots over Cody Hodgson. Agree or Disagree, Sedin-Kesler vs. Grabs-Bozak isn't the argument - it's all about grabs-bozak and where Cody Hodgson fits in. Is Cody more deserving of top 6 minutes than those two?

Moving on to bottom 6, a lot of teams (and the leafs are a prime example) run 3rd and 4th lines much less occupied with scoring than other teams. Bozak and Conolly, while only scoring comparably to Hodgson in fewer minutes, are better in the defensive aspects of the game. Again, judging by the leafs philosophy, they are better bets for 3rd line centres than Hodgson.

As for the 4th line, you're looking for a pure mucker and the likes of Lombardi or Steckel probably fit the bill the best. At that point, you're under-utilizing Hodgson with scant minutes and still not getting what you want out of a 4th line centre.

My opinion: It's not a terrible argument based on how Ron Wilson runs the lines. In practice, Hodgson would probably be given a chance if on the leafs right now, but I'm not sure he would have made it out of camp, because the fit isn't that great, to be honest. His chance to slot into the leafs would be the 2nd line centre role. It's not for me to claim that he'd beat Conolly or Bozak outright. If that's your contention, you're absolutely free to make it.

I do disagree with Prock in that if Hodgson was a marlie, he'd be on the top line. I think the leafs would be better for having a guy like Hodgson, and I think that he, like Kadri, will probably be nabbing some significant NHL minutes in the next couple of years.

The numbers Cody is putting up for those fixated on that, he is putting up with less than 13 minutes average ice time per game, you go ahead and pro rate that to the leafs players and see where that would put him.

First of all, more centre depth =/= better at centre (esp when you're talking about the top 6). PS. Kessel is a RW.

second, I think his contention is that while Grabovski-Conolly/Bozak may be an inferior top 6 set than Sedin-Kesler, both firmly would hold top 6 spots over Cody Hodgson. Agree or Disagree, Sedin-Kesler vs. Grabs-Bozak isn't the argument - it's all about grabs-bozak and where Cody Hodgson fits in. Is Cody more deserving of top 6 minutes than those two?

Moving on to bottom 6, a lot of teams (and the leafs are a prime example) run 3rd and 4th lines much less occupied with scoring than other teams. Bozak and Conolly, while only scoring comparably to Hodgson in fewer minutes, are better in the defensive aspects of the game. Again, judging by the leafs philosophy, they are better bets for 3rd line centres than Hodgson.

As for the 4th line, you're looking for a pure mucker and the likes of Lombardi or Steckel probably fit the bill the best. At that point, you're under-utilizing Hodgson with scant minutes and still not getting what you want out of a 4th line centre.

My opinion: It's not a terrible argument based on how Ron Wilson runs the lines. In practice, Hodgson would probably be given a chance if on the leafs right now, but I'm not sure he would have made it out of camp, because the fit isn't that great, to be honest. His chance to slot into the leafs would be the 2nd line centre role. It's not for me to claim that he'd beat Conolly or Bozak outright. If that's your contention, you're absolutely free to make it.

I do disagree with Prock in that if Hodgson was a marlie, he'd be on the top line. I think the leafs would be better for having a guy like Hodgson, and I think that he, like Kadri, will probably be nabbing some significant NHL minutes in the next couple of years.
- Morris

You're just as stupid as Prock. The Canucks have way more center depth than the Leafs.

Sedin
Kesler
Hodgson
Malhotra
Lapierre
Schroeder

VS

Grabovsky
Connolly
Bozak
Steckel
Colborne

Is this a joke? Depth includes all centers. If Grabosvky gets injured than your team has two third line centers and one fourth. If Sedin gets injured Kesler, becomes a number center which he already is. Hodgson becomes a second line center, which he should be.....Than they still have the best faceoff man in the league in Malhotra and Lapierre as the 4th.....

You're just as stupid as Prock. The Canucks have way more center depth than the Leafs.

Sedin
Kesler
Hodgson
Malhotra
Lapierre
Schroeder

VS

Grabovsky
Connolly
Bozak
Steckel
Colborne

Is this a joke?
- Boinker

Grabovsky
Connolly
Bozak
Lombardi
Steckel
Colborne
Kadri - winger maybe

The numbers Cody is putting up for those fixated on that, he is putting up with less than 13 minutes average ice time per game, you go ahead and pro rate that to the leafs players and see where that would put him.
- natowar

It's someone else's contention, not mine. My explanation clearly stated that numbers aren't everything. Again, in my opinion the discussion is whether Hodgson belongs in the top 6 of the leafs. Which plainly equates to: Is he better than at least two of Grabovski, Connolly, and Bozak?

For argument's sake: If Hodgson maintained his points/minute, he'd produce*

with grabovski's minutes: 43 points in 60 games (grabs has 40 in 54)
with Connolly's Minutes: 42 points in 60 games (connolly has 27 in 48)
With Bozak's Minutes: 46 points in 60 games (Bozak has 36 in 51)

*First, I took Cody's points scored divided by his total TOI to get his points per minute. Then I used TOI/G, not total TOI because the number of games played was uneven. Maybe total TOI would be more fair. Also note that obviously all three leafs aren't playing top 6 minutes!

So, in essence quite comparable or slightly better offensively. (Bozak 42 pro-rated, Connolly 34 pro-rated, Grabs 44 pro-rated).

Is this a joke? Depth includes all centers. If Grabosvky gets injured than your team has two third line centers and one fourth. If Sedin gets injured Kesler, becomes a number center which he already is. Hodgson becomes a second line center, which he should be.....Than they still have the best faceoff man in the league in Malhotra and Lapierre as the 4th.....
- Boinker

LOL at Hodgson should be a second line centre.

Since when is Malhotra the best faceoff man in the league.

You're just as stupid as Prock. The Canucks have way more center depth than the Leafs.

Sedin
Kesler
Hodgson
Malhotra
Lapierre
Schroeder

VS

Grabovsky
Connolly
Bozak
Steckel
Colborne

Is this a joke? Depth includes all centers. If Grabosvky gets injured than your team has two third line centers and one fourth. If Sedin gets injured Kesler, becomes a number center which he already is. Hodgson becomes a second line center, which he should be.....Than they still have the best faceoff man in the league in Malhotra and Lapierre as the 4th.....
- Boinker

I never made any claims about who's depth or set of centres was better or greater. I commented only that MORE centre depth is not the same thing as BETTER centres, as the first poster seemed to contend, and offered my opinion about where Hodgson specifically would fit in. Thanks for calling me stupid though, it was both necessary and productive.

Cody Hodgsons time on ice stats, TOI/SHIFT: 0:41 TOI/GOAL: 51:12 TOI/ASSIST: 45:11 TOI/POINT: 24:00

Bozaks TOI/SHIFT: 0:50 TOI/GOAL: 71:51 TOI/ASSIST: 40:37 TOI/POINT: 25:57


Connolly TOI/SHIFT: 0:46 TOI/GOAL: 89:58 TOI/ASSIST: 44:59 TOI/POINT: 29:59


Sorry bot none of those players are as good as Hodgson and this is Hodgsons rookie year while playing with 3rd and 4th line wingers. If Hodgson had Kessel as his winger and had the ice time as those two than it would even be close. Cody is a stud and the Canucks have way more depth at every single position. Leafs suck.

I never made any claims about who's depth or set of centres was better or greater. I commented only that MORE centre depth is not the same thing as BETTER centres, as the first poster seemed to contend, and offered my opinion about where Hodgson specifically would fit in. Thanks for calling me stupid though, it was both necessary and productive.
- Morris

It was mostly directed at Prock.

Grabovsky is just slightly better

TOI/SHIFT: 0:50 TOI/GOAL: 52:00 TOI/ASSIST: 42:32 TOI/POINT: 23:24

If the Leafs had Hodgson everybody would be creaming their pants.

Cody Hodgsons time on ice stats, TOI/SHIFT: 0:41 TOI/GOAL: 51:12 TOI/ASSIST: 45:11 TOI/POINT: 24:00

Bozaks TOI/SHIFT: 0:50 TOI/GOAL: 71:51 TOI/ASSIST: 40:37 TOI/POINT: 25:57


Connolly TOI/SHIFT: 0:46 TOI/GOAL: 89:58 TOI/ASSIST: 44:59 TOI/POINT: 29:59


Sorry bot none of those players are as good as Hodgson and this is Hodgsons rookie year while playing with 3rd and 4th line wingers. If Hodgson had Kessel as his winger and had the ice time as those two than it would even be close. Cody is a stud and the Canucks have way more depth at every single position. Leafs suck.
- Boinker

Sooo, you're saying he's not as good as Bozak. Thanks for proving my point.

Sooo, you're saying he's not as good as Bozak. Thanks for proving my point.
- prock

It takes Hodgson 20 minutes less of ice time per goal than Bozak.

Cody Hodgsons time on ice stats, TOI/SHIFT: 0:41 TOI/GOAL: 51:12 TOI/ASSIST: 45:11 TOI/POINT: 24:00

Bozaks TOI/SHIFT: 0:50 TOI/GOAL: 71:51 TOI/ASSIST: 40:37 TOI/POINT: 25:57


Connolly TOI/SHIFT: 0:46 TOI/GOAL: 89:58 TOI/ASSIST: 44:59 TOI/POINT: 29:59


Sorry bot none of those players are as good as Hodgson and this is Hodgsons rookie year while playing with 3rd and 4th line wingers. If Hodgson had Kessel as his winger and had the ice time as those two than it would even be close. Cody is a stud and the Canucks have way more depth at every single position. Leafs suck.
- Boinker

That of course means he's playing against 3rd and 4th line talent. I've yet to see a statistical argument that specifically accounts for that. Tyler Bozak, trailing 1:57 per point, plays more often against top lines and for example more often against the other teams powerplay (Bozak doesn't play much - a shift a game - but Hodgson doesn't play any), so that's a time on the ice with virtually no chance to produce.
39 of 60 minutes a game Sedin and Kesler are on the ice. This means Hodgson gets less time than the average leafs centre to produce, but it also means that he spends less time than the average leafs centre matched up against a top 6 line - there aren't many forward lines logging more than 20 minutes a game. I think Higgins-Hodgson-Hansen is probably a better offensive line than many of the bottom 6 lines in the league, and that's often their competition.

Not an anti-Hodgson argument, just a possible source of statistical error.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, it's only fair to point in the disparity in PP time. Bozak has more PP minutes for sure, and a better opportunity to score, theoretically.

Two factors here:
1) On the PP, Bozak plays with essentially the same players he plays with even strength, while on the Vancouver PP, Hodgson plays with Burrows and Booth (1st and 2nd liners). So considering those minutes, Hodgson isn't playing with 3rd and 4th line wingers, Though as you point out not necessarily different from the matchups he gets even strength.
2) Without be able to fetch specific stats on specific units, the Vancouver PP has had just over 10 more minutes than Toronto on the season, and is 3.2% more successful (It's the best in the league, Toronto is 9th). Thus Bozak has more minutes on the Powerplay than Hodgson, but Vancouver's time is more valuable and has produced more. Hodgson, personally, has scored 10 of 32 points on the PP and Bozak has scored 10 of his 36.