And the old joke goes...........to bad they play the games on ice!!!

Yes it's a terrible joke.

Hopefully with a couple of new ass. coaches there will be an improvement to the defensive system that has not been as good as expected over the past few seasons.
- Doppleganger

The systems they run are horrendous. Hopefully things change this year with the new coaches.

Is Franson and Liles better than Kaberle and Beauchemin?
- jordan456789

Yes. Easily. Hell, Aulie at 21 replaced Beauchemin last year and was easily better.

Not much difference really.

Franson is being overrated in Toronto already.
- daeth

How is Franson overrated? By who?

He's replacing Lebda, so he can skate on one leg and be an improvement.

Love the Leafs, don't like Burke.
- spatso

You don't like ANYTHING Burke does? If thats the case, then you are unreasonably biased

You don't like ANYTHING Burke does? If thats the case, then you are unreasonably biased
- Morris

He also said that bias is a good thing, and that if you don't live in the city of the team you cheer for then you are not blinded by the bias.

Theoretically the Leafs D should be improved this year. Why not be optimistic?

Yes.
- burn

I bet if asked last year when Kaberle and Beauchemin both played for the leafs, fans would say they are better.

I bet if asked last year when Kaberle and Beauchemin both played for the leafs, fans would say they are better.
- jordan456789

I wouldn't say its necessarily an improvement.

I see Liles as a lateral move from Kaberle (of the last few years). A little less offense, a little more defense. And as much as Beauchemin is a good dman, he didn't play well in toronto. Not a good fit? I don't know. That said, it remains to be seen if Franson is an upgrade. He doesn't have a long track record, making it tough to say for sure. Will he better? I don't know. I can say for sure that its more bang for the buck though.

Personally, I don't expect the defense to be much better, or much worse.

But I'm not sure how that is relevant either. Did anyone say anything about how its better or worse than last year prior to your post? I don't think so.

I bet if asked last year when Kaberle and Beauchemin both played for the leafs, fans would say they are better.
- jordan456789

Leaf fans hated Beauchemin.

I wouldn't say its necessarily an improvement.

I see Liles as a lateral move from Kaberle (of the last few years). A little less offense, a little more defense. And as much as Beauchemin is a good dman, he didn't play well in toronto. Not a good fit? I don't know. That said, it remains to be seen if Franson is an upgrade. He doesn't have a long track record, making it tough to say for sure. Will he better? I don't know. I can say for sure that its more bang for the buck though.

Personally, I don't expect the defense to be much better, or much worse.

But I'm not sure how that is relevant either. Did anyone say anything about how its better or worse than last year prior to your post? I don't think so.
- prock

Its not so much that we have better defence on paper compared to last year, it is more the fact that we finally saw some consistency in the defence at the end of the year.

Phaneuf started showing sings of his old self when paired with Aulie. Aulie is entering his second year and if he doesnt hit that sophomore slump, they will combine for a solid 1st pairing.

Schenn is Schenn, great shut down d, not much offensive upside, but he will provide a great partner for a d with offensive upside (i.e. Franson or Liles).

It seems like it should be good, but time will tell

Its not so much that we have better defence on paper compared to last year, it is more the fact that we finally saw some consistency in the defence at the end of the year.

Phaneuf started showing sings of his old self when paired with Aulie. Aulie is entering his second year and if he doesnt hit that sophomore slump, they will combine for a solid 1st pairing.

Schenn is Schenn, great shut down d, not much offensive upside, but he will provide a great partner for a d with offensive upside (i.e. Franson or Liles).

It seems like it should be good, but time will tell
- mfreedman

Burke assembled a pretty sollid d lineup. Most of it was in place last year. I personally think they played reasonably well last year. Goaltending was an issue, not the d. People say they gelled toward the end of the year.... Maybe. Maybe they just some goaltending they could depend on.

They DO have one of the better set of defenseman in the East. But its been that way before without great results.

I bet if asked last year when Kaberle and Beauchemin both played for the leafs, fans would say they are better.
- jordan456789

No. You obviously don't pay attention.

The funny thing is, Reimer was facing more shots than Giggy or Gustavsson.

Before Reimer arrived, the Leafs were allowing top 3 in the least amount of shots in the NHL. But people think the defense improved. Really the goaltending improved.

Sub .900 save % goaltending will make the defense look bad.

The Leafs defense wasn't that bad. They had an inept coach and terrible goaltending for the first half of the season.

How is Franson overrated? By who?

He's replacing Lebda, so he can skate on one leg and be an improvement.
- RogerRoeper

He's overrated by almost every Leafs fan I've heard talk about him. He's a #5 or 6 guy and likely will never be anything more than that on a playoff team. He's better than Lebda by a mile and the trade was good, but he's nothing special either.

He's overrated by almost every Leafs fan I've heard talk about him. He's a #5 or 6 guy and likely will never be anything more than that on a playoff team. He's better than Lebda by a mile and the trade was good, but he's nothing special either.
- daeth

I havent heard anything different than what you described...... Where are these "most leaf fans" because I haven't seen anything you said they are saying .

He's overrated by almost every Leafs fan I've heard talk about him. He's a #5 or 6 guy and likely will never be anything more than that on a playoff team. He's better than Lebda by a mile and the trade was good, but he's nothing special either.
- daeth

He was statistical a #4 guy on the deepest defense in the NHl at 23. The guy had one of the better even strength offensive numbers of any NHL defenseman last season. To say he's only a third-pairing guy is underrating him severely.

He was statistical a #4 guy on the deepest defense in the NHl at 23. The guy had one of the better even strength offensive numbers of any NHL defenseman last season. To say he's only a third-pairing guy is underrating him severely.
- RogerRoeper

He was 7th in TOI per game as a dman in Nashville.

Shea Weber 25:19
Ryan Suter 25:12
Kevin Klein 20:47
Francis Bouillon 20:13 (44 games)
Jonathon Blum 17:45 (23 games)
Shane O'Brien 17:06
Cody Franson 15:10

He was 7th in TOI per game as a dman in Nashville.

Shea Weber 25:19
Ryan Suter 25:12
Kevin Klein 20:47
Francis Bouillon 20:13 (44 games)
Jonathon Blum 17:45 (23 games)
Shane O'Brien 17:06
Cody Franson 15:10
- daeth

You're right.

He was 3rd in scoring though. 29 points with little PP time is pretty good.

He was statistical a #4 guy on the deepest defense in the NHl at 23. The guy had one of the better even strength offensive numbers of any NHL defenseman last season. To say he's only a third-pairing guy is underrating him severely.
- RogerRoeper

How severe of an underrating could it be to say a guy that posts pretty standard #4 stats is only a #5? He may blossom into a permanent 2nd pairing guy. I don't think he's there yet, I don't think he'll play in that role on the leafs, and I'm not sure he will get there. Doesn't mean he's a bad player.

EDIT: In fact I'll amend my wording to weaken it a bit. He could realize top 4 potential, but I am not certain he will be a top 4 dman.

Yes.
- burn

No. Franson is a huge soft Dman and Liles had a great first two months, 23 pts in 24 games, after that? 23 points in the last 52, it stands to reason his start was a fluke

Yeah, we get it, you hate the Leafs, they do no right, the Sens are the greatest, they do no wrong....

Enough already.
- prock

Doesn't it sound familiar? This seems to be a replica of you in a MTL Forum


But anyway, The difference between this defense and the defense 5 or 6 years ago is that your best assets are young so they will devellop. And stop whining about the leafs with each year, they are starting to look even better. At the end, the most important thing is the fact that your team as improved in each year and the maple leafs are doing it

I agree the last two years many have said the same thing, but the fact is, it's a different D this season, and they do look real good "On Paper".

Franson will be the #5 guy? That's depth.
- RogerRoeper

Franson would be a #5 on almost any team. Possibly even the Oilers TBH.

He was practically given away by Nashville.

Edit: I see it's been discussed

Franson would be a #5 on almost any team. Possibly even the Oilers TBH.

He was practically given away by Nashville.

Edit: I see it's been discussed
- gretzky

Second dmsn behind whitney.

No. Franson is a huge soft Dman and Liles had a great first two months, 23 pts in 24 games, after that? 23 points in the last 52, it stands to reason his start was a fluke
- FirstClass

you're forgetting who they are being compared to.... Liles scores the same as Kaberle, but is better in his own zone. Franson is young, played 5mins/game less than Beachemin and still outscored him. Beauchemin was terrible defensively for the Leafs.

So yeah, based on who they are compared to it was true.

Franson would be a #5 on almost any team. Possibly even the Oilers TBH.

He was practically given away by Nashville.

Edit: I see it's been discussed
- gretzky

He'd be #2 in pts for the Oilers. He played less/game than the Oilers top 8 guys, and outscored all but one. But yeah, he'd be their #5.