I think the point is that Burke definitely pounced on a good deal, but he didn't orchestrate some amazing unique solution when all the other GMs hands were tied. It's a great pickup. I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying that it's not one that any other GM would (and especially COULD) have done.
- Morris

It is the same old issue being repeated over and over again. The Leafs keep taking another team's 3rd line center (Connolly) in hopes that they can play for the Leafs as a #1 or they take guys that are moved to make space for new up and coming prospects on their own team (Franson) or guys that are too low on a depth chart to ever make the big team (Colborne and Gardiner). These are all good players and the Leafs benefit from the deals. But the only reason they do the deals is because they do not keep their draft picks and as a result they do not have their own prospects to move up. If the Leafs had some blue chip talent in their own system they would not be making these deals because they would be looking to fill positions from within their own talent pool.

It is the same old issue being repeated over and over again. The Leafs keep taking another team's 3rd line center (Connolly) in hopes that they can play for the Leafs as a #1 or they take guys that are moved to make space for new up and coming prospects on their own team (Franson) or guys that are too low on a depth chart to ever make the big team (Colborne and Gardiner). These are all good players and the Leafs benefit from the deals. But the only reason they do the deals is because they do not keep their draft picks and as a result they do not have their own prospects to move up. If the Leafs had some blue chip talent in their own system they would not be making these deals because they would be looking to fill positions from within their own talent pool.
- spatso

Yeah, and if they continue to gut their prospect pool, they could end up like the Sens.

Yeah, and if they continue to gut their prospect pool, they could end up like the Sens.
- prock

What your saying does not make much sense. They have gutted their prospect pool. They are not likely going to make the playoffs. Long term it does not appear that they will be much better or any different than what they are now.

What your saying does not make much sense. They have gutted their prospect pool. They are not likely going to make the playoffs. Long term it does not appear that they will be much better or any different than what they are now.
- spatso

Yes, if you gut your prospect pool for ten years, you'll end up like the Sens are now. Get it? You end up with a roster like this:

http://www.hockeydb.com/i...ons/teams/0000542011.html

The kind of roster that needs years and years to rebuild.

Yes, if you gut your prospect pool for ten years, you'll end up like the Sens are now. Get it? You end up with a roster like this:

http://www.hockeydb.com/i...ons/teams/0000542011.html

The kind of roster that needs years and years to rebuild.
- prock

I guess we just disagree. You know that I would prefer for the Leafs to be where the Oilers are today and where the Senators are headed. I want to see them contend for the Cup, not pretend that they might squeeze into a playoff spot sometime over the next five years.

I guess we just disagree. You know that I would prefer for the Leafs to be where the Oilers are today and where the Senators are headed. I want to see them contend for the Cup, not pretend that they might squeeze into a playoff spot sometime over the next five years.
- spatso

Given that the Sens pulled off the biggest tank job in NHL history, with top 3 picks in 5 consecutive seasons, and still couldn't win a cup, I'm not sure why you think it's so great that they tank 1 year so far, and they're heading in the right direction.

Given that the Sens pulled off the biggest tank job in NHL history, with top 3 picks in 5 consecutive seasons, and still couldn't win a cup, I'm not sure why you think it's so great that they tank 1 year so far, and they're heading in the right direction.
- prock

For me it is just a matter of fundamental philosophy. Most team's that make it to the Stanley Cup finals, including Ottawa, have done so because they have elite players in their line-up. Very seldom a team is able to trade for an elite talent. You might get a good player but not the kind of difference maker that helps you win everything. Ottawa has had 15 years of superb hockey built around elite players. The Leafs are 7 years without a playoff appearance.

I watched 4 games this weekend involving Leaf and Senator prospects against the Hawks and Pens. The Leaf kids played well, I think they will beat the Senators tomorrow night. But they are older in all their key prospect positions. Except for da Costa all the Senator top prospects are so much younger (20 and under) and it is hard to compare them with the Leafs.

Here is the problem. The Senators missed the playoffs the first five years after they entered as an expansion team. I think if you check you will see that they actually made the playoffs sooner than some other expansion teams have in their history. However, once they made the playoffs they continued as an elite team for a very long time. The Leafs by comparison have iced mediocre teams during most of the last 15 years (there have been a few good years). And, for seven years they have not made it to the post season.

My point over the summer has been very simple. If the Senators make the playoffs before the Leafs, there is going to be an enormous backlash. And, if it should happen Leaf fans will demand that MLSE look at how they go about trying to build a real contender. Nothing over this summer has changed for me in how I view the situation.

Here is the problem. The Senators missed the playoffs the first five years after they entered as an expansion team. I think if you check you will see that they actually made the playoffs sooner than some other expansion teams have in their history. However, once they made the playoffs they continued as an elite team for a very long time. The Leafs by comparison have iced mediocre teams during most of the last 15 years (there have been a few good years). And, for seven years they have not made it to the post season.

My point over the summer has been very simple. If the Senators make the playoffs before the Leafs, there is going to be an enormous backlash. And, if it should happen Leaf fans will demand that MLSE look at how they go about trying to build a real contender. Nothing over this summer has changed for me in how I view the situation.
- spatso

I don't think Leafs fans care nearly that much about the Senators. If there's any backlash it won't be because the Senators made the playoffs first, it'll simply be because it's taking the Leafs way too damn long to make the playoffs themselves.

I don't think Leafs fans care nearly that much about the Senators. If there's any backlash it won't be because the Senators made the playoffs first, it'll simply be because it's taking the Leafs way too damn long to make the playoffs themselves.
- daeth

I don't think it is because it is the Senators as much as the fact that they share the same sports news cycle (TSN, Sportsnet, Sun media) and Leaf fans are very aware that the Senators have taken a different route for their rebuild. My point simply comes out of the power of comparison. If the Sens make it back to the playoffs with the insertion young home grown prospects it will put in sharp focus for Leaf fans what MLSE has refused to do for most of the last 10 years.

It is the same old issue being repeated over and over again. The Leafs keep taking another team's 3rd line center (Connolly) in hopes that they can play for the Leafs as a #1 or they take guys that are moved to make space for new up and coming prospects on their own team (Franson) or guys that are too low on a depth chart to ever make the big team (Colborne and Gardiner). These are all good players and the Leafs benefit from the deals. But the only reason they do the deals is because they do not keep their draft picks and as a result they do not have their own prospects to move up. If the Leafs had some blue chip talent in their own system they would not be making these deals because they would be looking to fill positions from within their own talent pool.
- spatso

Oh come on, how do you know Colburne and Gardiner would never make the Bruins or Ducks? That's a pretty silly statement.

And Nashville didn't want to move Franson to promote anyone.

And I hardly think if the Leafs had their own first rounder, they wouldn't make deals like this.

Here is the problem. The Senators missed the playoffs the first five years after they entered as an expansion team. I think if you check you will see that they actually made the playoffs sooner than some other expansion teams have in their history. However, once they made the playoffs they continued as an elite team for a very long time. The Leafs by comparison have iced mediocre teams during most of the last 15 years (there have been a few good years). And, for seven years they have not made it to the post season.

My point over the summer has been very simple. If the Senators make the playoffs before the Leafs, there is going to be an enormous backlash. And, if it should happen Leaf fans will demand that MLSE look at how they go about trying to build a real contender. Nothing over this summer has changed for me in how I view the situation.
- spatso

Leaf fans don't care.

You really think they would give away a top young player for someone to take Lombardi and his 3.5 (not 4) million dollar salary off their hands? He is pretty much healthy right now too isn't he?

And for the record, the oilers would have no problem doing it financially. And we needed D man, ever wonder why we didn't "beat" your ridiculous offer?


Ironically, how often do people tell you to stop posting? Seems like a regular occurrence on here.
- gretzky

Nashville is broke, so yes.

Lombardi wasn't insured-That was the issue-Not his actual salary.

And he's not cleared to play and certainly wasn't when they made the deal.

Here is the problem. The Senators missed the playoffs the first five years after they entered as an expansion team. I think if you check you will see that they actually made the playoffs sooner than some other expansion teams have in their history. However, once they made the playoffs they continued as an elite team for a very long time. The Leafs by comparison have iced mediocre teams during most of the last 15 years (there have been a few good years). And, for seven years they have not made it to the post season.

My point over the summer has been very simple. If the Senators make the playoffs before the Leafs, there is going to be an enormous backlash. And, if it should happen Leaf fans will demand that MLSE look at how they go about trying to build a real contender. Nothing over this summer has changed for me in how I view the situation.
- spatso

I think if you check, not even the worst managed NHL teams spent anywhere near 5 years that far in the basement. I also think you have a very loose definition of "elite", if you're considering the Sens "an elite team for a very long time". They really didn't accomplish all that much. I think you could pretty easily name 8 to 10 teams over that period that did more.... 1/3 of the NHL. I'd say you most definitely have to be better than more than just a 1/3 of the NHL to be considered elite. Given there are 30 teams, I'd say it's a stretch to call any more than 5 teams "elite". And without a fraction of a second of doubt, that is not the Sens over that time period.

And Leaf fans don't give a shyt about the Sens. Sens fans are probably chomping at the bit to see if they can get some retribution for getting ousted from the playoffs 4 consecutive times, all of the series played between the two teams in history, but don't think Leaf fans care as much as you Sens fans. It's fun laughing at you, but nothing more.

Yes, if you gut your prospect pool for ten years, you'll end up like the Sens are now. Get it? You end up with a roster like this:

http://www.hockeydb.com/i...ons/teams/0000542011.html

The kind of roster that needs years and years to rebuild.
- prock

its also how you get to the scf.

its also how you get to the scf.
- sens rock

I'm pretty sure that roster is not going anywhere near the finals. There is no more than 1 or 2 players that would make a team that would go to the finals.

Nashville is broke, so yes.

Lombardi wasn't insured-That was the issue-Not his actual salary.

And he's not cleared to play and certainly wasn't when they made the deal.
- RogerRoeper

I can't believe how stupid some people can be. How can people not piece together that they're going to have trouble, in part because of a massive Shea Weber salary.

Oh come on, how do you know Colburne and Gardiner would never make the Bruins or Ducks? That's a pretty silly statement.

And Nashville didn't want to move Franson to promote anyone.

And I hardly think if the Leafs had their own first rounder, they wouldn't make deals like this.
- RogerRoeper

Never said they would not make the Bruins or Ducks. They are just so far behind other players on the depth charts of those teams that they are expendable. This is not rocket science. Teams that are deep in talent invariably will be required to offer up some good talent if the player has the ability to play in the NHL with another team. I think the point you make fails to recognize that all the teams have great scouting staff and they know their talent. If Anahiem gives up on a Gardiner they have a reason and you should not be so quick to assume that they made a bad choice or, even worse, the idea that Burke won another deal. The same thing probably applies to Franson. Nashville has done pretty good in making the right choice, why would you think that they suddenly got stupid? Franson might be a good player on the Leafs, he does not have a big role with the Preds if you look at their roster and some of the talent in their farm system. The fact that they have used the Leafs to leverage their own talent is good management on their part. The Leafs are able to do it because they do not have their own home grown talent competing for playing time.

I can't believe how stupid some people can be. How can people not piece together that they're going to have trouble, in part because of a massive Shea Weber salary.
- prock

i mean gutting your prospect pool is how you get to the scf.

the sens are rebuilding that pool now, and have an excellent core that will definitely have a chance to make the scf in 5 years or so.

I don't think it is because it is the Senators as much as the fact that they share the same sports news cycle (TSN, Sportsnet, Sun media) and Leaf fans are very aware that the Senators have taken a different route for their rebuild. My point simply comes out of the power of comparison. If the Sens make it back to the playoffs with the insertion young home grown prospects it will put in sharp focus for Leaf fans what MLSE has refused to do for most of the last 10 years.
- spatso

"Share" is a bit of a strong word to use. Hell, we could turn Sportsdesk off after the first 5 minutes of every telecast, and would probably make it through the entire year without seeing one Sens highlight, if it weren't for the 6 times they play each other.

Here is the problem. The Senators missed the playoffs the first five years after they entered as an expansion team. I think if you check you will see that they actually made the playoffs sooner than some other expansion teams have in their history. However, once they made the playoffs they continued as an elite team for a very long time. The Leafs by comparison have iced mediocre teams during most of the last 15 years (there have been a few good years). And, for seven years they have not made it to the post season.

My point over the summer has been very simple. If the Senators make the playoffs before the Leafs, there is going to be an enormous backlash. And, if it should happen Leaf fans will demand that MLSE look at how they go about trying to build a real contender. Nothing over this summer has changed for me in how I view the situation.
- spatso

I want you to keep something in mind:

Luke Schenn 5th overall pick
Phil Kessel 5th overall pick
Tim Connolly 5th overall pick
Nazem Kadri 7th overall pick
Jeoffrey Lupul 7th overall pick
Dion Phaneuf 9th overall pick

Some of the better players on out team:

Nikolai Kulemin 44th overall pick
James Reimer 99th overall
Keith Aulie 116th overall
Mikhail Grabovski 150th overall pick

Yes we don't have any 1st overall picks, but you know what? only 1 team gets that a year.

We could tank, end up with 5 5th overall picks and end up int he exact same situation we are in now. You build a championship team through DEPTH Scouting (i.e. Kulemin, Reimer), smart trading (i.e. Lebda/career ECHLer for Franson/Lombardi ---- or Spare parts for Phaneuf/Aulie), a good coach (will come in when Wilson is fired), and a great system

Draft picks do not equal results. Smart management equals results. Burke is doing fine, and time will tell how it turns out. Stop losing faith.

Leaf fans don't care.
- RogerRoeper

Yes we do. Most of the serious Leaf fans abandoned this site years ago. It has been left to the kool aid drinkers to pump the Leaf story as told by MLSE. You would think that they would give some credit for your loyalty but they just keep playing you as a sucker biting on their hook.

i mean gutting your prospect pool is how you get to the scf.

the sens are rebuilding that pool now, and have an excellent core that will definitely have a chance to make the scf in 5 years or so.
- sens rock

But, no NHL impact players on roster. It'll take longer than you think.

Nashville is broke, so yes.

Lombardi wasn't insured-That was the issue-Not his actual salary.

And he's not cleared to play and certainly wasn't when they made the deal.
- RogerRoeper

And, so what does that really mean. Nashville wanted to do a salary dump and the Leafs took on their excess baggage. A dump is a dump is a dump.

But, no NHL impact players on roster. It'll take longer than you think.
- prock

There are few (Spezza, Karlsson, Michalek) on the roster right now, but lots of talent upcoming. I know it will take time and im fine with waiting. I think in 5 years when the glut of their current prosects are 23-26 they will be in contention for the cup.